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Frank Szymanski [00:00:05]:
Hi. I’m judge Frank Szymanski, and when I’m not singing in a David Bowie tribute band, I’m listening to John Garrett and on What’s Your “And”?.

John Garrett [00:00:17]:
Welcome to episode 631 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And.” Those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond the job title. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at what’s your and dot com.

John Garrett [00:00:50]:
The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to corporate culture and I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon. Thank you so much for those. And more importantly, changing the culture where they work because of it. If you want me to read it to you, that’s right. This voice reading the book. Look for What’s Your Hand on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Frank Szymanski.

John Garrett [00:01:23]:
He’s a juvenile court judge in Detroit, and now he’s with me here today. Frank, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your End.

Frank Szymanski [00:01:30]:
Oh, it’s great to be here and looking forward to catching up with you.

John Garrett [00:01:34]:
Yeah. This is gonna be a blast, man. This is gonna be super fun. I have some rapid fire questions, though. Get to know Frank out of the gate here. I think this is an easy one. Favorite color?

Frank Szymanski [00:01:44]:
Favorite color? I guess I’ll go with blue.

John Garrett [00:01:47]:
Yeah. Mine too. Solid. Okay. We can keep going. Alright. How about a least favorite color?

Frank Szymanski [00:01:52]:
Oh, gosh. Brown, I suppose. And, actually, my wife has this towel that’s blue and brown, and I’m like, who puts blue and brown together?

John Garrett [00:02:03]:
That’s an evil trick. There you go. How about more cats or dogs?

Frank Szymanski [00:02:07]:
Dogs. Definitely not cats for me.

John Garrett [00:02:11]:
All the other animals and then cats. Okay. Alright. How about, toilet paper roll? You go over or under?

Frank Szymanski [00:02:17]:
Over. It’s supposed to be over. I I somebody told me that, and I never had a reason to doubt it.

John Garrett [00:02:22]:
The judge says. So there you go. Case closed. We’re done. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Frank Szymanski [00:02:29]:
Oh, gosh. I think Robert Redford is great.

John Garrett [00:02:32]:
Oh, yeah. So good. That’s a great answer. He’s amazing. And it’s it’s been a little while, but his his movies are so good. This is a good one for Michigan. Rain or snow?

Frank Szymanski [00:02:44]:
I like them both, actually.

John Garrett [00:02:46]:
Really? Okay.

Frank Szymanski [00:02:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:02:48]:
Alright. Fair enough. Yeah. That’s that’s great. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, crossword puzzle, jigsaw puzzle?

Frank Szymanski [00:02:56]:
How about none of the above?

John Garrett [00:02:59]:
I don’t got time for that.

Frank Szymanski [00:03:00]:
I gotta tell you, my daughter was really great at that stuff, and I just never that’s not my thing. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:03:08]:
No. It doesn’t have to.

Frank Szymanski [00:03:09]:
I’ll tell you, what is the puzzle for me is, you know, I write songs. And for me it’s like, what is that perfect word or that perfect phrase that describes something that songwriters have written about for 100 of times, but I want to say it my way that nobody’s ever heard it before.

John Garrett [00:03:28]:
Exactly. I love it. No. I’ll totally take that cause it has to fit the rhythm. It has to rhyme. It has to let me that’s a puzzle. That’s a much harder puzzle than anything I’ve tried.

Frank Szymanski [00:03:37]:
Okay. And here you go. I’m this is one of my favorite lines of all time. Okay? Yeah. Of all the songs I’ve written hundreds of songs, John.

John Garrett [00:03:45]:
Yeah.

Frank Szymanski [00:03:46]:
My train to nowhere is running late.

John Garrett [00:03:50]:
Oh my goodness. That’s really good. That’s deep.

Frank Szymanski [00:03:54]:
To me,

John Garrett [00:03:55]:
that deep.

Frank Szymanski [00:03:56]:
That gets into Dylan territory almost. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I that came to me, and I was like, where the hell did that line come? I love that line. I love that line.

John Garrett [00:04:05]:
Yeah. No. That’s really good. That’s Jeep. There’s layers to that. I like that. That’s good stuff. How about a favorite cereal from when you were a kid or now? Either

Frank Szymanski [00:04:13]:
one. Gosh. You know what? I went through a phase where for and I don’t know how long it lasted, a couple weeks or a month or whatever. I went through a phase where all I ate all day long, because at for breakfast I had one bowl, lunch I had 2 bowls, and dinner I had 3 bowls, a cereal called rice crinkles. What?

John Garrett [00:04:34]:
Rice is that like the generic Krispies?

Frank Szymanski [00:04:37]:
I don’t think they make it anymore, but it was like rice Krispies, but it was a little bit different. It had a little more sugar in it probably.

John Garrett [00:04:45]:
Okay. There you go. I love it, man. That’s awesome. That’s so good. So good. How about a favorite number?

Frank Szymanski [00:04:51]:
I gotta go with number 9. I mean, I was a I grew up in Detroit as a hockey player, so Gordie Howe, number 9.

John Garrett [00:04:58]:
There you go. That’s a solid answer. Chocolate or vanilla?

Frank Szymanski [00:05:03]:
You know, again, I like both, but I I’ll go with vanilla. I’ll go with Okay.

John Garrett [00:05:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. I like it. That’s good. How about ice cream? I’m a huge ice cream junkie in a cup or in a cone.

Frank Szymanski [00:05:14]:
In a cone. In a the sugar cone. Right?

John Garrett [00:05:17]:
Oh, yeah. The sugar cone. There you go. Like, you gave me a rice pickle.

Frank Szymanski [00:05:21]:
Cone.

John Garrett [00:05:21]:
Oh, waffle cone. You’re upgrade.

Frank Szymanski [00:05:23]:
Okay. I like it. For ice cream flavors, I gotta tell you, we used to go from Detroit. You can drive north, and there was this place when I was a kid, and it had, like, 25 or 30 flavors. Blueberry Ripple. Oh my god. I lived and died for that.

John Garrett [00:05:40]:
Yeah. That sounds really good.

Frank Szymanski [00:05:42]:
Yeah. It was too good.

John Garrett [00:05:44]:
Pens or pencils?

Frank Szymanski [00:05:46]:
Pens.

John Garrett [00:05:47]:
Pens. No mistakes. There you go. I like it. How about your computer, more of a PC or a Mac?

Frank Szymanski [00:05:52]:
All Mac. Mister Mac. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re gonna do creative stuff, a friend of mine who’s into computers said, you gotta get into using a Mac, and he told me that, like, 15, 18 years ago, and I took him up on it. You know, I do my own audio, my own video editing, everything. So, yeah, I’m a guy.

John Garrett [00:06:13]:
Nice. There you go. And since you have the law background, suits or law and order?

Frank Szymanski [00:06:18]:
Oh, gosh. I haven’t really watched either of those in my Okay. Alright. Fair. My family, we used to watch LA Law. Oh, okay. I’ll take LA Law. There you go.

Frank Szymanski [00:06:29]:
Okay. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:06:30]:
That’s that’s a solid answer. I should have thrown that in the mix. There you go. I like it. That’s awesome. How about what do we got here? Favorite toppings on a pizza. Load it up. Whatever you like.

Frank Szymanski [00:06:40]:
Oh, yeah. You know what? Just onions and extra sauce and light cheese because I’m not yeah. I kinda try to not eat too much of the that stuff. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:06:50]:
Oh, no. That that works. This is a fun one. Socks or shoes?

Frank Szymanski [00:06:55]:
How about socks and shoes? Okay. You could have them both. I’ll let you have them both. Yeah. Alright. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:07:00]:
Alright. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Frank Szymanski [00:07:04]:
Oh, gosh. Favorite thing that I own, I guess. You know, I’ll tell you something. I just got a nice little plaque was awarded to me. I had a song that went to number 1 on an independent radio station, And I got this acknowledgment thing. Yeah. It was like a audience vote thing. Okay? Independent, you know, no payola, no nothing.

Frank Szymanski [00:07:30]:
I mean, I was even lucky that so a guitar player that I did a song with sent it to this independent radio station in London, and they let fans vote. And it moved up the charts, and then we went to number 1. And I got a beautiful thing that says, hey, I was number 1. So it was an acknowledgment of, I’ve been writing songs for 35 years or whatever. And I wrote the melody and the lyrics and sang the song, and these other guys did the music, and it was really great. So I guess that’s something yeah. Something I would point out.

John Garrett [00:08:05]:
That’s very cool, man. That’s incredible. Move over, Hasselhoff.

Frank Szymanski [00:08:08]:
There you

John Garrett [00:08:08]:
go. Shymanski’s here. There we go. That’s super cool. And and also, like, you don’t write one song and then, you know, get that. You know, that comes from years of, I would say, practice, but also just sharpening that tool, you know, and then getting better at it.

Frank Szymanski [00:08:23]:
And if anybody wants to hear it, it’s on all the streaming platforms. It’s called the days of blind and roses. Oh, there you go. Okay.

John Garrett [00:08:34]:
That’s awesome. And we’ll have a link on the show page as well. That leads us right into one of your big ends, I mean singing. How did you get started? Was this something from when you were a kid or did you come into it later?

Frank Szymanski [00:08:46]:
So when I was, you know, walking home from school and and grade school, I remember, you know, I love, you know, pop music. This is in let’s, go back to the sixties. And, you know, The Beatles and The Kinks and The Who and all those I love the British stuff. And so I kinda thought to myself, jeez, you know, I could write songs like that. But I none of my friends I was a jock. I played, you know, as a hockey player. I never had any friends that played drums or guitar or anything. And then after I got out of law school, I had a situation where I hurt my back, I couldn’t play hockey for a while, my girlfriend broke up with me, and I started my own practice.

Frank Szymanski [00:09:33]:
I didn’t have a lot of clients. So all of a sudden, I had all this time, and I couldn’t do the things that I wanted to do. And I’ll never forget a moment that changed my life. And we were talking before we went on about speakers and, you know, this do you change something? And there’s a video and, you know, if anybody remembers this, do you remember a song called Iran by a flock of seagulls? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So there’s a scene in there and the singer and he’s singing, and I ran, you know, and he goes with one finger and he puts his finger down on one note on a synthesizer, and he’s just kind of turning it. And I was like because I had no musical trading background or whatever.

John Garrett [00:10:15]:
You were like, I can press one note.

Frank Szymanski [00:10:16]:
And I was like, I can do that. Yeah. That was like the license for me to become the rock star I always wanted to be. Right? I love it, man. So just from that, I signed up. I’d started taking, piano lessons, voice lessons. I bought a synthesizer. And literally within, I know it was less than 2 years, it might have been even within a year and a half, I had not only, you know, learned how to write some songs with basic simple chords.

Frank Szymanski [00:10:48]:
I’m not Beethoven or Bach or Soliari or whoever those guys are.

John Garrett [00:10:53]:
But that’s the stuff that’s on the radio.

Frank Szymanski [00:10:55]:
So there you go. Yeah. Yes. And simple is good. Right? In pop Absolutely. Simple is powerful. So within literally a year and a half, I had my own band, and I was singing in clubs. You know, I was out there.

Frank Szymanski [00:11:08]:
I was doing it. That’s incredible. That’s so great. It was very

John Garrett [00:11:13]:
Like, that’s so cool, man. Because there’s a part of you that was there, that was inside you, and it took till after law school. And after all the things that you listed, I’m surprised you didn’t become a country singer, to be honest. My girlfriend broke up with me. My dog ran away, like, my law firm.

Frank Szymanski [00:11:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:11:29]:
But I think, you know, there was that part that was inside you that’s like, I need to come out. And for you as Frank Chimanski to ignore that is is crazy. You know, well, I’m a lawyer and I’m this is how lawyers act. And it’s like, no. This is all of me and and who I am as a human. And so I think it’s awesome that you were like, no. No. There’s this other part that also needs to flourish and it needs to have a light shined on it.

John Garrett [00:11:53]:
And I I think that’s awesome.

Frank Szymanski [00:11:54]:
And the thing is, as I say, if I had a friend who was a guitar player or something, I probably would have gotten into this sooner, but I I didn’t have anybody like that. You know? And now, you know, not only as a judge, and I do I do a lot of speaking, and I’m a big advocate for my other and is, you know, getting people to meditate or to do mindfulness, to do yoga, to do these practices. You know? I’m working to bring all these things to the juvenile system and even an adult prison systems and everything. You know? And and as I work to bring all of that in, it’s like, when I do presentations now, I always find an opportunity. Well, I gotta tell you. That’s what I think. One of my things is as a singer, you know, I sing in a David Bowie tribute band.

John Garrett [00:12:47]:
Yes. Absolutely.

Frank Szymanski [00:12:49]:
So when I’m really having fun, you might, you know, changing my vocal delivery.

John Garrett [00:12:56]:
There you go. And what made you go with Bowie?

Frank Szymanski [00:12:59]:
So I gotta tell you something. I, you know, I saw Bowie perform when I was in law school, and I was like, you know, he he kinda brought the drama. He’s very theatrical. That’s what really connected with me. He’s very theatrical, and his lyrics are deep, and he’s a super charismatic performer. When I saw him, it was like, that’s what I want to do. Right? How’d that guy get that job? Like, it’s And so for years, I was working on, you know, getting my own career, you know, my music career off the ground or whatever. And we were talking before we went on it too about, you know, if you’re a comic too, how challenging that is, how much of a ringer it is, and how there’s a million of really talented musicians who never really make it to, you know, Bowie’s level.

Frank Szymanski [00:13:56]:
Right?

John Garrett [00:13:57]:
Totally. Yeah.

Frank Szymanski [00:13:59]:
And the big thing that’s been happening in the music in the last 5, 10 years or so, these tribute bands are everywhere. Every freaking act that ever sold a record has a freaking tribute band. I mean, do you know that in Detroit, there’s a J. Geils tribute band? Are you serious? Yeah. And I was like, holy cow. And so I figured, hey, if I’m going to do a tribute band, I’m gonna go for the jugular, and it doesn’t get much bigger than being David Bowie.

John Garrett [00:14:32]:
Right.

Frank Szymanski [00:14:32]:
Yeah. He got to the top of the food chain. Right?

John Garrett [00:14:35]:
Yeah. No. I mean, Prince, maybe? I mean, it’s like I don’t know. Like, what would be the more like, I mean, that’s incredible.

Frank Szymanski [00:14:41]:
I’ll tell you. If you look at me, and I know people

John Garrett [00:14:44]:
see You can’t see people can’t see

Frank Szymanski [00:14:47]:
me, I’m not gonna do a good job of doing Michael Jackson. Okay? I just it’s not gonna work.

John Garrett [00:14:53]:
Right. Exactly. I think that’s so awesome that there was, like, that side of you that you explored in in in to this day. And yet, you know, so many people think, well, that’s not how I’m supposed to be or that’s not what I’m supposed to because I’m you know, I have this career or I have this job or, you know, I have this degree. Like, was there ever a part in your mind where you were like, maybe I shouldn’t, you know, do this or I shouldn’t share that I do this?

Frank Szymanski [00:15:19]:
You know, I’ve found that I gotta be me. Right? And you’re right that certainly had some thoughts where it’s like, oh, okay. So I’m a juvenile court judge, and I’m gonna go on stage and do this rock and roll stuff or whatever. I’ll tell you what, if I have heard one thing of many times, it’s like people will always say to me, would they get to know me or whatever, that’s like, well, you don’t sound like a judge. You don’t act like a judge.

John Garrett [00:15:55]:
But how insulting is that though? Like, what did you think I was going to be?

Frank Szymanski [00:15:59]:
But I also think it’s fair because people think of judges as being, you know, pretty reserved, you know, type of people. And I got into being a judge, you know, to help people. And so that doesn’t mean that I have to stop being who I am with everything else. Not at all. I would think

John Garrett [00:16:18]:
that you’re helping more people by being who you are. You know? Like, if if you were to hold back, like, it’s it’s it’d be like trying to do your job with one arm tied behind your back and blindfolded. It’s like, well, no. I’m I’m better with all my tools.

Frank Szymanski [00:16:34]:
Jen, I wanna give you the highest compliment for being a voice for people to bring these other parts of them to their job. It’s a wonderful concept. I couldn’t agree with it more. And I find that when I really open up, you know, because I don’t always you know, it’s not like every hearing, I’m like, well, yeah. I’m gonna just start singing for you. You want a David Bowie impersonated for me, and I don’t do it really on the bench much, but when I do my speaking engagements and I speak about, you know, meditation, I speak about I do talks on all sorts of social justice issues. I actually have a book that I wrote called Identity Design, which I wrote because I sit in my courtroom every day. I hear about people messing up their lives, right, with terrible decisions.

Frank Szymanski [00:17:42]:
And so I wrote this book, Identity Design. It’s like, these are the things if you want to live a successful productive life, these are the things that you should be doing. And there’s like, my favorite chapter is the service identity. And it’s all about how when we serve others, we serve ourselves, and that’s a beautiful thing. And that’s what you’re doing. I mean, you know, by getting people to be more all of themselves at work, that’s what you’re doing. You know? You’re supporting

John Garrett [00:18:11]:
the whole family. Thank you so much for yeah. I mean, because I mean, just fully activated people are more fun to be around. They’re more interesting. They’re better at I mean, if you’re living your best life, then you’re gonna do your best work. If I were to tell you, like, hey, you can’t sing anymore or you can’t do mindfulness anymore or, you know, speak to people about that anymore, well, then you’re not gonna be as good at your job. I mean, it’s that easy. So it’s just, you know, helping people, like I said, just activate it.

John Garrett [00:18:40]:
Like, just feel alive, you know, like and and feel powerful, and and the power doesn’t have to come from the degrees and certifications that you have. There’s power and skills from these other things as well. And I would say they’re maybe they’re even stronger because they’re innate. They’re so in you that you can’t deny it. You know? Like, the singing and like, you didn’t go to school for that till after it came out. You know? Like, you didn’t start to do lessons till later, and you didn’t do it because you had to. You did it because you wanted to, and that’s a a totally different shift in life, really, is, you know, these are things that I that I want to do because I sorta have to or else I’ll go crazy.

Frank Szymanski [00:19:24]:
The things that you would do for free, you know, and which I have done for free.

John Garrett [00:19:28]:
Right? And a ham sandwich. You know, like, it’s there we go.

Frank Szymanski [00:19:32]:
It’s like I was saying to you, I think this maybe was before we went on the air that, you know, I’ve avoided the starving artist label by having another career. And when I do these speaking engagements, I’ll work in some little opportunity to sing a line here or there or whatever, and it’s like that’s something that people, you know, tend to remember.

John Garrett [00:19:56]:
I’m not singing because, I’m my voice when people ask me, like, what do you want your superpower to be? I just wanna sing and dunk a basketball. That’s it. I just said, that’s all. And these and they’re like, that’s not even a superpower. I’m like, it is to me. Like, that’s amazing. So I I think that’s so fantastic. And then, you know, the peacemaker side of you of bringing mindfulness to juvenile and even, you know, the systems that, you know, that you you deal with.

John Garrett [00:20:20]:
I mean, I think that’s so fantastic, you know, that side of you as well, that’s really making a difference in people’s lives.

Frank Szymanski [00:20:27]:
Well, it you know, it’s something that I think about all the gun violence that we experience in this country. And I’ll throw out a statistic. I guarantee you, you’re not gonna believe this when I tell you this. Alright? Do you know that in 2021, which is the last year that I’ve seen statistics for

John Garrett [00:20:47]:
Right.

Frank Szymanski [00:20:48]:
We lost over 48,000 people to gun violence in this country. That’s more people than died in combat in Vietnam in 8 years.

John Garrett [00:21:04]:
Holy cow. That is nuts.

Frank Szymanski [00:21:06]:
I think about this is an epidemic, and the only way we know we’re not gonna get rid of all the guns. Right?

John Garrett [00:21:14]:
Right. Right. Yeah. So work with the mindfulness and get people to get off the meds and, like, yeah. That mindfulness I mean, it’s so powerful just to unfortunately, we’re not taught that. We’re taught the opposite, actually. You know? Like, you know, get good grades, think. It’s all in your brain.

John Garrett [00:21:31]:
And never once is it, hey, just hit pause and sit and be and you know, from your heart. Like, what are you feeling? It’s always what are you thinking and what do you know. And it’s very little of the opposite.

Frank Szymanski [00:21:43]:
Yeah. I’ve been doing practices, you know, meditation, yoga, mindfulness. I’ve been doing these practices for over 20 years myself, and I know the difference that they’ve made for me. And you know, there’s research that says that, for example, a regular yoga practice is actually more effective at addressing anxiety and depression than any of the medications that we have.

John Garrett [00:22:10]:
I believe that wholeheartedly.

Frank Szymanski [00:22:12]:
So why aren’t all the clinics, the pharmacy clinics, why aren’t they yoga studios while the money’s not there?

John Garrett [00:22:19]:
Exactly. It’s hard to make money, when people aren’t sick, Frank.

Frank Szymanski [00:22:23]:
And people want to take a freaking pill when all they got to do John, these practices, I did some research, they’ve been around you got to go back to the 19th century, and I’m not talking about the 19th century AD, I’m talking about the 19th century BC. Most of these things have been around for more than 5000 years. Why would people still be doing this if they these practices didn’t work? And the other thing I tell people is, let’s talk about the most successful people in the world. Lebron James, Oprah Winfrey, Mick Jagger, they all do these things. And the CEOs of, you know, Bill Ford from Ford Motor Company, they all do these things. Why? Because it makes them better at everything else that they do. And so if you want to say to me, oh, I’m too busy. I, you know, are you busier than Bill Ford running Ford Motor Company? Are you trying to tell me that? I’m not buying it.

Frank Szymanski [00:23:19]:
I am not buying it. You can find 20 minutes a day to be who you really should be. And I’ll tell you, it’ll make this world so peaceful if we can get everybody, you know, people doing these things. And there’s I’ll tell you some other research. There’s research that says if you can get 1%, if you can get 1% of the population practicing, there’s something called the Maharishi effect. I learned from somebody who worked directly with the Maharishi, and he Farrokh and Clasaria. God bless you, Farouk. I know you’re not with us anymore, but God bless you.

Frank Szymanski [00:23:57]:
But the Maharishi effect, if you can get 1% of the population to meditate in an area, you’ll see a statistical reduction in violent crime. Absolutely. Crime goes down as a result of that. And Farooq, you know, God bless him. This was in the nineties, I believe, and you can find there’s an article online. He ran a program teaching meditation to the prison. Everyone in the in Senegal, in the country of Senegal, in Africa, learned to meditate, do you know that the the recidivism rate went from, like, 90% to less than 20%? They started closing all these prisons. And that’s what we should be doing.

Frank Szymanski [00:24:45]:
And I gotta get, John, you gotta help me. You gotta help me get

John Garrett [00:24:49]:
people Well,

Frank Szymanski [00:24:50]:
that’s that’s what the show’s all about. Like, there it is. John, you gotta get this show syndicated. I wanna see this on CBS radio and the ABC and B and C.

John Garrett [00:25:00]:
Do you know anybody? Like let’s make it happen man.

Frank Szymanski [00:25:03]:
This will

John Garrett [00:25:03]:
be the first one. Yeah.

Frank Szymanski [00:25:04]:
Let’s make it let’s make it happen.

John Garrett [00:25:06]:
We can change the world. Right? And then I’ll get a certificate so I can match your certificate. Everyone should be happy. Like, it’s all good. Yeah. But I I think it’s great. And, like, meditation and and mindfulness, it doesn’t always have to happen, you know, by sitting on a pillow in a yoga studio. I would argue that your music and you when you’re performing, I mean, that’s mindfulness for you.

John Garrett [00:25:26]:
I mean, like, you’re completely not thinking about anything else except for that one thing and that that’s mindfulness. It’s just being focused on one thing or or nothing being the one thing. And so by having an and, it’s super easy for people to to practice this because you have something that gets you out of your element and out of your mind and just totally zen and totally in the flow with the thing that you’re doing. I think that’s great.

Frank Szymanski [00:25:54]:
I love what you just said, and it brings me to one of the other points that I like to remind people of all the time. Our and is our personal flow activity. Right? If you I don’t know if you’ve read the book Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. I’m probably butchering his name, but, you know, these activities that when we are engaged in them, and it can be a singer singing, it can be a dancer dancing, it can be a surgeon performing surgery, It can be somebody knitting. I mean, for some people it’s knitting. It’s different for everybody, but when we’re in these activities, time becomes suspended. These activities are so special to us. One of the big problems we have in this world today is that people have these types of activities, but then they don’t make time for them in their life.

Frank Szymanski [00:26:46]:
They spend all their time trying to make money so they can buy things that aren’t gonna make them any happier. Whereas if they would just give themselves more time to sing or to knit or to run or to play ping pong or whatever, the world would be a better place. And you’re right. You know, you don’t necessarily have to sit 20 minutes every day, although I personally recommend it. I will never stop doing it. But you can design your life to spend more time in flow mode. And I tell people, especially for I work with a lot of people that have experienced really serious trauma. I’ve had kids that are were raped at a young age multiple time.

Frank Szymanski [00:27:28]:
It’s terrible. And, you know, that stays in your head. Right? And the problem with trauma is that it’s there. But when you get into doing an activity, maybe it’s playing basketball, whatever. That’s where your focus is. I love to play tennis and hockey still. I still do those things too. And when I’m out there, I’m not thinking about, oh, you know, this didn’t go well for me or I or so and so.

Frank Szymanski [00:27:53]:
I got a problem with this person or that. You’re not thinking about those things. Right?

John Garrett [00:27:58]:
No. I love it, man. I mean, it’s you’re so spot on. I mean, just having an and and doing your and, you know, making time for it makes the world a better place. I mean, it really does. It makes you living your best life and then everyone around you is better as well. And, I think it’s awesome. You know, Frank, this has been so great.

John Garrett [00:28:15]:
Like, this is so fantastic and I appreciate the kind words, genuinely. Before we wrap this up though, I feel like it’s only fair that I turn the tables. We make this the Frank Szymanski podcast. And thanks for having me on as a guest. And so if you have any questions since I peppered you with questions at the beginning, I’m not gonna lie, when a judge asks me questions, I’m a little bit nervous, but, you know, hey, like, we’ll see where this goes.

Frank Szymanski [00:28:38]:
I can talk to you. Okay. And let’s remember that I don’t act like a judge.

John Garrett [00:28:43]:
I know. Exactly. Exactly.

Frank Szymanski [00:28:45]:
So I love your you know, that you’ve developed this, and I will hope that you’ll be able to expand this because I think it’s a great concept, this idea of getting people to bring more of themselves to their, perhaps, more dry work environment or whatever. So what would be, like, what are your best experiences in terms of your having done this?

John Garrett [00:29:10]:
I guess for me, it’s really cool when most of this happens

Frank Szymanski [00:29:25]:
Okay.

John Garrett [00:29:25]:
You know? So it’s it’s almost like giving people permission to it’s okay. Like and and not only is it okay, but statistically, I’ve done my own research even of 92% of professionals have a hobby or passion outside of work. 92. It’s not even close. 92 to 8. Like, 8% of the judges are the stiffs that people think they are. 92% of judges are awesome people that you wanna hang out with. Accountants, lawyers, engineers, like, you know, bankers, all kinds of stuff.

John Garrett [00:29:55]:
It’s really just giving people permission to come alive. And that’s really powerful, and and it’s really cool to see when that light switch happens, you know, in people. And I could see it from stage as well. So that’s really awesome. And then when you bring it to an organization and you actually see it start to be on the regular where that’s what they do here. And then new people have started, and they didn’t know any different. They just thought that this firm has always been like this. And that’s really cool to see when that happens where it’s like, that’s just what we do here.

John Garrett [00:30:27]:
It’s just neat to just give people permission to, you know, live your best life.

Frank Szymanski [00:30:31]:
Yeah. No. That that’s great. That’s great. And then the other thing that I’m curious about is because I tell people, you know, every couple of years I come up with, I think, a great idea. Right. So what was it that got you started? Because I think this is a great idea. What was it that got you started in terms of really kind of focusing in this way?

John Garrett [00:30:54]:
Oh, no. I appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, I was corporate for a long time, and then I went to stand up. That was my end. Made that full time, and then had some near misses and then started doing more of the corporate. And for a while, it was be the green apple. So like in a bushel full of apples, the green one stands out because most of them are red.

John Garrett [00:31:14]:
So just be unique. You know, you’re still an apple. You’re still a judge, but, you know, be your own flavor of judge. But the problem is is that, one, that’s been kind of run through a lot. And also, 2, if you haven’t seen me speak, then that doesn’t make any sense. Be the green apple. Like, what is that what are you talking about? And so that’s when I started to just talk with people about, like, well, you know, just you’re a judge and what? Like, what’s your and? And I honestly don’t even care about the first part. I care about the second part.

John Garrett [00:31:42]:
Like, that’s so much cooler and more fun to talk about, even about myself. A friend of mine in the UK, he said it’s on the tin, I guess is a phrase they have over there where I don’t have to explain what’s your and. You’re a judge and what? Oh, I get it. I get it right away. Like, you don’t have to explain it. You don’t have to it’s right there. It’s right on the label. It’s just bam.

John Garrett [00:32:02]:
There it is. I’m not trying to sugarcoat it. And so that’s really how it came about. It it wasn’t an overnight thing. It was over time. And just, you know, I guess, in the process of, you know, trial and error and error and and more error. And then finally, you hit. And it’s like, hey, this seems to latch on, and I like it.

John Garrett [00:32:19]:
So that’s really what’s more important for me. Is something that I’m excited to talk about.

Frank Szymanski [00:32:24]:
That’s cool. So I got another one for you. Alright.

John Garrett [00:32:26]:
Okay. I’ll let you one more. What do we got?

Frank Szymanski [00:32:29]:
So what is the biggest thing on your bucket list? Something that you haven’t done yet that you want to I gotta do this before I’m gone.

John Garrett [00:32:38]:
You know, I like that. I like that a lot. That’s really good.

Frank Szymanski [00:32:41]:
I’m putting you on the spot. Right? I mean, this is something I’d have to think about too. I mean, you know.

John Garrett [00:32:47]:
Part of me wants to say sing a song while dunking a basketball. That’s definitely is it will they have a callback there? Like, that’s definitely on the bucket list for sure. I mean, I’ve done a lot of really cool things. I’ve been fortunate in my life to do a lot of really cool things so far. I mean, there’s a small part of me that’s, like, you know, visit Antarctica or something like that just because it’s like it’s there and why not, you know, like type of a thing. I mean, there isn’t, like, a deep burning of, like, oh, man. If that doesn’t happen, then I haven’t lived a full life. You know? I’m fortunate enough to be able to do some cool things and do some things that I don’t wanna cop out an answer.

John Garrett [00:33:31]:
But, honestly, man, if I could sing a song while dunking a basketball, that’s not even a joke. That’s legit. I would be, like, I’m done. Like, I’ve self actualized. I’ve reached the top of the pyramid.

Frank Szymanski [00:33:41]:
But see, I think just by what you’ve said, it kind of reinforces that John Garrett is where John Garrett needs to be. You’re doing something that’s of value and that you enjoy and that’s making a difference. That’s the way I want my you know, I wanna run the rest of my life. And I’ve I feel like I’ve already had, you know, some measure of that, and I just more of that.

John Garrett [00:34:06]:
I love it, man. Well, you definitely have. And I just appreciate you being a part of what you’re in, being a living example of this, and I love it so much. So thank you so much, Frank, for being a part of

Frank Szymanski [00:34:15]:
this. Awesome. Awesome. My pleasure.

John Garrett [00:34:21]:
Always. Absolutely. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Frank on stage or connect with him on social media or get the link to that song that he was talking about or all of his other music, be sure to go to what’s your and dotcom. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.