Welcome to Episode 327 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, the things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is published. You can check it out at whatsyourand.com for all the details, foreword by Lou Holtz. I’m super excited about that as a Notre Dame grad. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Book Depository, Barnes & Noble and a few other websites. All the links are on that page, whatsyourand.com. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s getting the book, leaving such nice reviews on all the sites and sharing how their cultures are changing because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, David Jenyns. He’s the founder of SYSTEMology in Melbourne, Australia, and the host of the Business Processes Simplified podcast, and now he’s with me here today. David, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?

David: Pleasure. This is going to be the most fun podcast I’ve ever been on. I can tell already.

John: Thanks so much, man. Yeah, it’s going to be a blast. We’re going to keep the doors open here, get to know David on a new level with my rapid-fire questions.

David: Let’s do it.

John: Yeah, it might be the end of the show. I’m not sure. It could be the beginning and the end. No, I’m kidding. All right, easy one, easy one, favorite color.

David: Blue.

John: Oh, mine too. All right, how about a least favorite color?

David: Brown. It’s an ugly color.

John: Yeah, it is. You’re right. Yeah, it’s not necessarily great. Here’s one, pens or pencils.

David: Depends what I’m doing. If I had to pick though, I’d go pens.

John: Yeah, no mistakes, just like…

David: For me, it’s all in.

John: Exactly. Yeah, it just writes nicer. I don’t know. I agree. How about puzzles, Sudoku or crossword?

David: Can I do find-a-word?

John: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, you can. Totally. Yeah, those count. Okay. Yeah, I haven’t done that in a while. Yeah, for sure. It should be, favorite thing in the back of an airplane magazine. That’s what it should be. It’s Sudoku, crossword and find-a-word. Yeah, there you go. How about this one, brownie or ice cream. Ice cream, there you go. All right. How about a favorite actor or actress?

David: Does Seinfeld count? I know he’s comedy.

John: Yeah.

David: Yeah, I was just watching Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee last night, so that’s fresh in my mind.

John: There you go, absolutely, absolutely. Would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

David: I would like to think I’m an early bird but most often, my work happens at night.

John: There you go. At least you’re being honest. That’s awesome. My book being out, how about Kindle or real books?

David: Always real books. I’ve never actually made the jump to Kindle. I’ve tried. I really have. I’ve even got a Kindle loaded with books, but it just doesn’t get the same love.

John: Right, because you don’t see it all the time. I think a real book’s there, plus the touching and the smell of books and…

David: Yeah. Makes me feel old to think that though. I used to think that I was young. Now when I say, oh, I like print books; that makes me sound old.

John: Right. Well, I think you’re just a traditionalist. That’s what it is. You’re sentimental.

David: Good framing. I like that.

John: Yeah. How about, do you have a favorite number?

David: Yes, seven. I love it, always loved it.

John: Yeah, mine too. Is there a reason?

David: That’s the best.

John: That’s it. There we go. It’s perfect. You’re like, I don’t even know why I need to answer that question. How about this one, jeans or khakis.

David: Jeans. I have probably gone five years wearing jeans almost every day.

John: Oh, wow. There you go. Are you a cowboy? That’s impressive.

David: That’s my hobby. I know we’re going to get to it.

John: That’s right. You’re the jiu-jitsu cowboy. That’s awesome. All right, how about oceans or mountains?

David: Oceans, yeah. I live right near the ocean too, so much better for so many more reasons. I think there’s no debate. I’m surprised that people even say mountains.

John: That’s where the episode ends actually. That’s a trap door right there where it’s — how about favorite toppings on a pizza if you want to load it up?

David: I like my pizzas simple, so, salami, like maybe an Americana or something like that.

John: Pepperoni, we have.

David: Yeah, yeah, like a pepperoni, exactly. Bang on.

John: There you go. All right, how about on your computer, PC or a Mac?

David: Look, we’re going to go head-to-head with this one. I just know that you are a PC. I am a Mac.

John: I just know — is it that obvious that I’m a PC? Really? Is it that obvious?

David: You look like a PC.

John: Totally. I’m not even cool enough to go into the Mac Store. I don’t own enough white clothing to walk into the all-white heavenly place. I wait outside.

David: Did I tell you that there were white jeans that I wear?

John: Oh, yes, year-round. That’s fantastic. Oh, my Lord. You’re a different kind of cowboy. How about favorite ice cream flavor?

David: Chocolate. I also like choc chip, but I don’t really like choc chip with chocolate. So, it’s either vanilla and choc chip or chocolate. Yeah.

John: Got it, but not chocolate ice cream with chocolate, that’s too much chocolate.

David: Too much, yeah.

John: Yeah, that’s a little too much. All right, how about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

David: Star Wars, definitely. I haven’t been able to commit to Star Trek because there’s too many of them. I like to finish things. There’s just too many.

John: They’re forever long, and there’s so many. I think it goes back to like the ‘60s or something. There’s a lot of episodes of this podcast, but there’s even more Star Trek. It’s kind of crazy. All right, two more. Cats or dogs.

David: Dogs. I find cats a little bit too needy. I feel like they always need attention. I don’t know. They just don’t look after themselves enough. I think dogs, a bit more personality and…

John: They’re actually happy to see you where cats are more irritated. Or maybe it’s just me. All right, and the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

David: I have this egg chair, and I love it so much. They hang from the ceiling with a chain?

John: Oh, okay.

David: I love it so much, but I don’t sit in it enough. I don’t know if I like it because I like the idea of having it. One day I’ll make time to get into it. I don’t use it enough, but I love it. I love to look at it. I love to sit in it, but I just don’t.

John: So, it looks like an open egg sort of a thing and with a chain to the…

David: To the ceiling and then it’s got pillows inside. You sit in this little egg, and it floats. If the kids are around, they love to come and push it. I, like an old man, I’ll say, “Stop pushing it. Go inside.”

John: That’s very cool. Yeah, you get your old book out, and you sit in there and read it and then fall asleep at like two in the afternoon.

David: That’s right, with my book book, in my white jeans, with a bowl of chocolate ice cream.

John: We are painting the pic — that’s a bold move, chocolate ice cream with white jeans. That’s a disaster waiting to happen.

David: Yes. Yeah, all or nothing.

John: That sounds cool, though. I’ll definitely have to check into that. I might need to get one myself now. Maybe I’ll sit in it though. It sounds cool. Let’s talk jiu-jitsu. I honestly don’t know much about it. How did you get started? Was it something you were doing from childhood?

David: In my high school, I started watching what’s really early days of the UFC, Ultimate Fighting Challenge. It must have been like the UFC number five or something. They’re probably up to Episode 5 million now or something. I’m not sure. I saw that, and there was this guy who was Gracie, and he kept on winning all of these fights. I just thought, oh, well, he’s winning. I want to do what he’s doing. So, I just started doing it while I was at school and stuck with it for a long time and just love it. For those who don’t know, it’s a little bit like wrestling, I suppose, only you add in some extra chokes and armbars and leg locks and those sorts of things.

John: It’s less like karate and more like Judo or things like that.

David: Yeah. Of course the difference with something like Judo, it starts like Judo but then when you get to the ground, you keep going. Judo, oftentimes, you get them to the ground. In jiu-jitsu, you go until the other person starts tapping you, saying, “Ow this hurts, or I’m about to pass out.”

John: Oh, wow. Okay, all right. It’s almost a battle of the will there.

David: Yeah.

John: Yeah, because even if you get a guy down, you’re like, how is he still breathing? He’s still not…

David: Keep going.

John: Yeah. Yeah, you’re like, you’re one stubborn son of a gun.

David: You think of it against something like kickboxing. When you’re kicking and punching and if you’re actually sparring, that hurts. You get black eyes and things like that. Whereas wrestling, I feel like you can go 110% and you get to the point where you tap out and, okay, great. Now we start again. I love it. I can play 110% without a fear of having a broken bone or appearing with a black eye.

John: Yeah. No, that’s impressive, man. That’s very cool. Are there tournaments? Or is this just like a rec thing that you just start practicing? Or how does that work?

David: Glad you asked that question because I don’t get to tell this much, but I happened to get second place at the Pan Pacifics in Australia for Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I lost to a Brazilian who was flown over from Brazil. It’s called Brazilian jiu-jitsu, so I think that gives you an idea that he’d been practicing since he was three. I like to tell that part of the story. The bit that I often leave out from that story is that this was back very early days. It was like Pan Pacs number two or three as well. It was really early days, and there were only about four or five people competing in the division.

John: That’s awesome. Still, it doesn’t matter, man. You weren’t fifth.

David: That’s right. I get to tell people now, “Oh, I was second in Pan Pacs.” Because I took a big long hiatus and then I’ve just recently come back to it. It was always a bit of a passion, and I’m rediscovering it. I’ll tell people that I came second in the Pan Pacs, and their mouth just drops to the floor because now they have literally hundreds and hundreds of competitors who appear. You get the behind-the-scenes part of that story.

John: Yeah. I feel like right before the finals, you should have said, “No, no, for this one, we’re doing Australian jiu-jitsu.” They’re like, what’s that? You’re like, you’re about to find out.

David: Yes.

John: Because that’s unfair, they fly someone in from Brazil.

David: If I move to Denver, it’s good to know, it looks like I’ve got a jiu-jitsu coach over there now.

John: You just come out and just flailing arms. It’s called the windmill. No one knows. You can’t stop it. That’s hilarious. The difference is, in Australian jiu-jitsu, you wear white jeans when you do it.

David: Correct, and thongs.

John: Right, flip-flops. Thongs, holy Lord. That’s hilarious. That’s so funny. Yeah, so do you feel like this has given you a skill, it sounds like, that translates to work? I mean, just a mindset, I would have to believe, or fortitude that comes with that.

David: I think doing some form of martial art is great because it teaches so many different lessons. Yeah, there’s discipline. In jiu-jitsu, you have to learn to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations because you’re quite often in uncomfortable situations.

John: Right, right.

David: Stressing out, negative self-talk, being down, it never helps. You just have to zen out in the moment and then look for the break and the opportunity. You create little spaces that then build into bigger spaces. I love it from that perspective. It’s a great opportunity as well, being a business owner, I like the opportunity to have a coach in jiu-jitsu where I can really be the student. Because, oftentimes, in the business and with the team, I am the coach. It’s nice to also be coached, to be able to draw lessons on that from a completely different realm, and look at it differently. So, yeah, it definitely filters through to everything.

John: That’s a great point. Because there’s a lot of things that translate from one part of your life to other parts of your life, and learning from other coaches of their style and, yeah, you’re teaching me how to do jiu-jitsu moves or what have you, but the way that they do the coaching and the way that they reinforce that is something that you can then translate to your business, which is a great point.

David: Just recently, I remember my jiu-jitsu coach, he was commenting on one thing that makes a really good coach is the coach’s desire for the student to become better than they are, which I can see a lot of coaches where, they never want to be knocked off the perch, or they want to be that top dog. Is it a real desire for the coach to have that person go beyond them? That’s one of the attributes. I thought, wow, that’s really interesting. Again, I bring that back to business and I think about skilling up the team members. I want them to be better at their craft and what they want to get good at than I am. That also makes me be a little bit more humble and appreciative of their skills and allowing them to do their thing and giving them the space and quit micromanaging. A lot of those smaller lessons that I’m pulling from here, and maybe they’re not even small, but I’m drawing them over into business, and it makes a difference.

John: That’s awesome, man. Yeah, because as a manager, if you’re a really good manager, then everyone below you eventually becomes also managers because you’re teaching them and you’re building them up. Then they become managers, and they’re good at it, and then they get their people to then become man — it’s a great thing. Most of us grow up thinking, oh, well, you just have to keep everyone good below you. It’s like, not totally because it helps the team, overall, for the greater good. That’s cool, man. Yeah, that’s an interesting insight. Is jiu-jitsu something that you talk about at work at all, with colleagues, clients, what have you?

David: I don’t do it frequently. I think the lessons shine through. Sometimes they’ll ask me. As much as I said, I don’t necessarily get a black eye, I’ll do have a carpet burn down the side of my ankle. Someone is like, “What has happened to you?” Oftentimes it comes up then.

John: You should see the other guy.

David: That’s right. He was fine.

John: He’s totally fine. You wouldn’t even know. Actually, he’s on the call. What are you doing, Carl? I’ll get you next time. But yeah, it’s not something that you go, just shouting from the rooftops every five minutes but, yeah, it’s something that comes up. Why not talk about it?

David: One thing I am finding, and it’s probably good as we talk through it, to become more conscious of telling those stories. Because I’m finding particularly the more that we start working on Zoom and virtually and remotely; more often than not, I’m just getting down to business on those calls. I’m finding, hey, I’ve got some things that need to be done. We just jump straight to it. I’m finding there’s a lot less chitchat or passing of those types of lessons through stories, which has only just jumped out at me now. I know people learn via story, so I’m going to just keep telling more of them.

John: Yeah, I agree, totally. In the virtual world that we’ve been in for a little while, we definitely need to be more conscious and intentional with having some of that idle chatter and that water cooler talk and that just brief little, hey, how’s everything going? Because everything now is a scheduled meeting. It’s not like we’re all just hanging out on a virtual platform and then whenever somebody drops in, oh, hey, what’s going on, like in the office. It’s different.

Yeah, that’s a great point of sharing some stories, even other people sharing their stories of what’s going on in their daily life because, yeah, those are the things that you remember a lot more than all the technical skills and things like that, that people have. Sometimes I find that people are reluctant to share, maybe early on in their career. Is that something that maybe was the case? Or were you just always, take it or leave it, this is who I am?

David: I remember early on, listening to too many tapes from Amway. They used to have this thing at the end of the month, and I would listen to these things of Zig Ziglar and your Jim Rohns, and them telling me that I was the best in the world. I always felt six feet tall and bulletproof, so I’ve been fine to just say, “Hey, this is who I am. This is how I am. Take it or leave it.” Just prior to that, though, I used to think I was too young, and I hadn’t quite earned my dues and my stripes. Definitely, the older I get — I know this is a podcast so people can’t actually see me. Visually, I look like I’m about 12, but I’m actually 40 or thereabouts. Now the older I get, the more comfortable I am just kind of go, “Hey, I’ve got some skills. I can share with you what I know. You can find the bits that work for you and take those and see. If they help you, use them, great; if they don’t, listen to the the next wisdom nuggets that I’m going to drop into your lap.”

John: Hope you’re wearing a seat belt, here it comes. No, but that’s so true, man, and I love to hear that those other speakers and those tapes that you listened to, just motivated you to realize that it doesn’t matter. You are who you are. It’s so exhausting to do all the hiding and feel like you’re supposed to leave a part of you outside. It’s kind of a shame, especially when now, those skills can translate, as you said. You’re taking coaching skills from jiu-jitsu and bringing them to work.

David: I love that idea of becoming, I don’t know who said it, but it was, become so good they can’t ignore you or —

John: Steve Martin in his book, Born Standing Up, yeah.

David: That idea where I just keep focusing on my craft and I just keep getting better at that, that’s really the biggest thing I have control over. So, I really stick to my knitting, with regards to that and double down on it.

John: Yeah, but having these other dimensions to who you are makes all of it better. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole type of thing, I guess, or whatever it is, type of thing. We’re just dropping all kinds of phrases. Is there something that you do to encourage your team to share their outside-of-work interests or to give them time to go do them?

David: One thing, as far as giving them the space, we’re a really flexible team. We work virtually, have done for the better part of 15 years, and we’re distributed as well in all locations, so I love to find the best talent, no matter where they are in the world. I’m looking for great talent, great value. Because we do that and we live in this flexible environment, and I’ve got a young family with two kids, and there will be times where I’ll want to walk the kids to school, or I’ll want to take the afternoon off because it’s a nice afternoon; I try and also create that space for the team. We work hard, but we’re also quite flexible. I think the world is heading in that direction anyway, but creating the space for that, for people to find that.

The other thing I’m trying to do, I’ve been battling to do it for years. For some reason, I still haven’t got my head around to it, so maybe this is the chance. I’ll make a public declaration that I’m going to do it. I also want to train jiu-jitsu at lunchtime on a Wednesday. For some reason, I’ve always done it either first thing in the morning or last thing at night, but I love the idea of making it part of the workday. I make the space for the others in the family, but I really don’t make the space during the day for, necessarily, me, personally.

John: That’s great. Because that’s the thing is, having this “and”, it really needs to be something that’s a personal thing. For a lot of people, oh, it’s family, and it’s whatever. No, no, that’s a different dimension of who you are. The “and” is something that you do on your own. Maybe if it’s jiu-jitsu with the family, okay, well, it’s still jiu-jitsu. It’s making time for yourself. It doesn’t have to be every day. It doesn’t have to be every week. Certainly just scheduling time and doing it or else you’ll forget what lights you up.

David: This is a really good topic. You should write a book on this, I reckon.

John: Trust me, man, writing that one book was enough, and that was… Yeah, writing a book is hard. I felt like I was at a chokehold for two years, and I couldn’t tap out. I didn’t know how to tap out.

David: Yes.

John: I just passed out, I guess is really what happened.

David: Writing is a slow and painful process. Then you find out, when it’s written, and it’s done, and it’s published; you go, oh, I’m not actually finished yet. Now I have to promote it and get the word out. You’re really only halfway into this marathon, but the feeling of getting it done is quite good. There’s definitely that level of satisfaction that comes from completing.

John: Yeah, it’s a journey. That’s for sure. Journey, I think is the word for it. A friend of mine said that there was an author about 100 years ago, and I forget who it was, but had a quote. It was, “Books are never finished. They’re just abandoned.” You’re just done. You’re just like, you know what, I’m done with this one. We’re buttoning it up and print, there it goes, type of thing. This one, yeah, I’m super proud of it, and I’m excited that it’s getting out there. Yeah, it’s just cool to just share that and all that, but back to you, David. Back to you.

David: I don’t know if I’ve told you. I should have. This is actually — people won’t be able to see this. I’ve just written my second book.

John: Oh, there you go. You have your second book. Excellent. I’ll have a link in the show notes.

David: SYSTEMology.com/book. That’s: Create Time, Reduce Errors and Scale Your Profits with Proven Business Systems. I understand how painful it is, so I was speaking with a camaraderie, hey, I feel your pain.

John: Two books, man, you’re a veteran.

David: I have an efficient way of doing it. Do you want my specialty code?

John: Yeah, yeah. Well, SYSTEMology, you have all the systems. Do you learn these systems just on the hard way, or do you learn them from other places? Or is it a hybrid? How do you become so efficient?

David: I’d say the hard way.

John: Okay, okay.

David: I do love a good shortcut. The shortcut for how to write a book for someone, if you want to write a really good book, and it will depend on the personality. All systems are about finding what works well for the individual, but for me, I find it easier to speak my content. What I do is I run a book workshop, and I’ll get a handful of people in the room. I like doing workshops because then it forces you to have the work complete by a set date because you know the people are going to turn up, and you’ve got to be ready to present. You locked it in. Once you run your little workshop, you record it. When you prepare the workshop, you think of it in terms of a book and the different chapters and the different editions you’re going to run, then you get it transcribed, then you send it to a ghostwriter, then it comes back, then you have an edit, and then you send it off. It goes to an editor and then you’re done.

John: There you go.

David: It’s a nice way to get it all out.

John: Where were you two years ago? Where were you? Just kidding, man.

David: You needed to learn the hard way, John.

John: Yeah. No, I definitely wrote every single word of it. That’s the thing is you get a team of people that are around you, content editors, copy editors, proofreaders, publisher, that they just help it become a better, better book, so you do have to check your ego a little bit, for sure, to just put that aside.

David: My jiu-jitsu teacher helped me with being able to take feedback well. Because definitely with the book, I remember going to the editor, and the editor was a bit worried on how I would take feedback. She goes, “Some authors, they are just so stubborn. They feel like it’s been written by the hand of God. It will not be changed.” “Others,” she said, “really good authors will understand that a good editor provides the perspective, and they’re worth their weight in gold to say — which she did for SYSTEMology. I was a bit too heavy in some content at the front of the book with some stories, and she said, “You do realize it’s taking you about a third of the book before you actually get to your seven-step process.” So, she rejigged some things where we pulled some out of the earlier stories and moved them to later on. Now, I’m getting fantastic feedback and reviews of something that I just couldn’t see. So, editors, you need to be open to that feedback and allow it.

John: Yeah, for sure. I completely agree. Really, that’s great for a lot of things in life. Really, it’s a different set of eyeballs from a different angle, and it’s like, oh, wow, okay, yeah, I didn’t even notice that. Yeah, that’s awesome, man. That’s very cool. Yeah, there’s definitely a link on the show page, for sure, for people that want to get that. Do you have any words of encouragement to people that are listening that have a hobby outside of work and feel like it has nothing to do with their job?

David: I think my words of encouragement is just to do it and continue doing it, if you do have one, or try and discover it, try and test some things out. I think the older you get, the more you kind of know what it is. For me, I started to narrow in on a handful of things that I really enjoy. I think when you’re younger, it’s best to try out and test a bunch of different things to find, oh, yeah, well, I do like snowboarding more than I like skiing, or I do like the ocean because it’s much better than the mountains or whatever the case may be. You find those things and then you lean into those and try and create the space. Really, as I say that advice, I’m giving it as much to the listener as I’m giving it to myself as well. I’ve got to create more space for it as well.

John: Yeah, because you said that you were away from jiu-jitsu for a little bit and then, now that you’re back, is there a difference, do you feel, from when you were doing it versus not?

David: Definitely, I think I was doing it a lot more competitively when I was younger. Whereas, now, I do it very much for enjoyment. I know I’m not going to be appearing on the UFC anytime soon. I’m happy to just turn up and enjoy it, enjoy the fitness side of it, the challenge side as a way to get better and then take those learnings and then move them over into other realms. I’m not necessarily going to be the next Conor McGregor.

John: Right, right. You can get the tattoos if you want.

David: Yes.

John: You can go nut, go nuts. Well, this has been so much fun, David. I really appreciate it. It’s only fair, since I started out the show, rapid-fire questioning you, that we turn the tables, and it’s yet another episode of the David Jenyns Show, everybody. I’m happy to be your first guest or whatever, so there we go.

David: Potentially my last after these.

John: Right. I’ll ruin it for everyone. Don’t worry.

David: Okay, so my first question, and whatever comes to mind, good, bad or the ugly is how I want this. I want this very unfiltered. What is the first thing that you think of when you think of the word business systems?

John: Business systems. Yeah, I guess efficiency. I also see a flowchart. My internal audit days, I see a flowchart of that. That’s what I think of.

David: All right, next one, directing or being directed.

John: Oh man, that’s hard. We just talked about a little bit with the coaching. I guess directing. I just think other people have dumb ideas. No, I’m kidding. I’m totally joking. No, no. No, no.

David: Sometimes there are dumb ideas, and you’re just like, why don’t you see that?

John: Right. Well, I just feel like it’s solicited feedback, solicited coaching versus unsolicited coaching, and for some reason, the unsolicited is always terrible, always. I’ve never had unsolicited be, wow, you know what, I’m so glad you came up and told me that. I don’t think it’s ever happened.

David: I reckon that’s a good feedback there. I will only now give solicited feedback.

John: That was on behalf of your team, on behalf of your team. They wanted me to say that to you, David.

David: My last question, what is the most favorite sound that you can make right now?

John: Oh, my most favorite sound? Remember in Dumb and Dumber with the most annoying sound in the world?

David: There we go. That’s what I was looking for.

John: Mission accomplished. Yeah, that was a really good one, man. That was hilarious. It’s either that are the seventh grader making a fart with my armpits. It was one of those two. It was one of those two.

David: I find the one under the armpit, if there’s a bit too much pressure to make it work, I find it’s quite hard for me to do it on cue.

John: Yeah, I guess it’s probably — it is a little bit of pressure. It’s probably better with your mouth. I pretty much perfected it as a juvenile on the inside. I’m still in junior high school. This has been so much fun, David. I really appreciate you being a part of What’s Your “And”?

David: Yeah, thanks for having us. I may not come back on the show after these questions I’ve answered. This is the last time you’ll have me. Thanks.

John: No, no. We’ll have you for Follow-Up Friday, for sure.

Everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of David in action or maybe connect with them on social media and also get his book, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

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