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Joel Zeff [00:00:05]:
This is Joel Zeff. And when I’m not making people laugh and looking for the greatest iced tea in the world, I’m listening to the amazing John Garrett on What’s Your “And”?

John Garrett [00:00:17]:
Welcome to episode 665 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and. Those things above and beyond your technical skills are the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond your job title? And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at www.WhatsYourAnd.com.

John Garrett [00:00:49]:
The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside-of-work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon. Thank you so much for those. And more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right. This voice reading the book, look for What’s Your Hand on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast. You don’t miss any of the future episodes.

John Garrett [00:01:16]:
I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest and friend, Joel Zeph. He’s a keynote speaker and MC and the author of Make the Lead with Passion, Elevate Your Team, and Unleash the Fun at Work. It’s available now. He’s out of Dallas, Texas, and now he’s with me here today. Joel, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your Hand.

Joel Zeff [00:01:40]:
John, I am thrilled. I’m honored that there were 664 people that came before me that you said, you know, Joel, you are number 665 on my list of people that I wanna interview in the world. I wanted to

John Garrett [00:01:56]:
make sure that I was good before I invited you on.

Joel Zeff [00:02:00]:
Okay. That’s a 50. Now there’s another 500 that you chose before me.

John Garrett [00:02:06]:
Well, here you are. Your name starts with z. You should be used to this.

Joel Zeff [00:02:09]:
Yeah. I’m the six hundred and 65th best keynote speaker and author that John

John Garrett [00:02:15]:
Garrett very many keynote speakers and authors on here, to be honest. Alright. So out of that list, yeah, you’re in this thing. Feel better. Well, this’ll make you feel better. 17 rapid fire questions to get to know Joel out of the gate here.

Joel Zeff [00:02:28]:
Why do we do 17?

John Garrett [00:02:30]:
Because it’s a random number that Okay. I’m just Do you have a favorite band or musician?

Joel Zeff [00:02:35]:
Bon Jovi would probably be I’ve probably seen them five times.

John Garrett [00:02:39]:
Okay.

Joel Zeff [00:02:40]:
And so, I mean, off I mean, I I like all different types of music. I have favorites in every genre. The last song that I downloaded was a David Bowie song. So I have a long list. I mean, eighties, anything, because that’s when I really grew up. But I would say Bon Jovi if I had to if you said one concert. I’m like, dude. Let’s go to Bon Jovi, and let’s all sing Livin’ on a Prayer, baby.

John Garrett [00:03:01]:
There you go. I love it. That’s awesome. How about, favorite color?

Joel Zeff [00:03:05]:
Green, I would say, because my eyes are green. Green is the rarest eye color. So there’s only 664 people in the world.

John Garrett [00:03:12]:
Hey. I don’t think I’ve had a green. Yeah. Although, I haven’t asked their eye color. So, how about a least favorite color?

Joel Zeff [00:03:18]:
Brown, probably. You know? Just kind of there’s no color there.

John Garrett [00:03:22]:
It even sounds not fun.

Joel Zeff [00:03:24]:
I mean, I don’t wear brown. You know? Like a brown suit. You know, I would wear Yeah.

John Garrett [00:03:28]:
Hell, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’d be weird. How about books? Ebook, audio version, or real book?

Joel Zeff [00:03:33]:
Real book.

John Garrett [00:03:34]:
Real book. Yeah. Yeah. And yours is hardcover even, isn’t it?

Joel Zeff [00:03:38]:
It is audible. And by the way, the voice of animated Superman does the audible. I you mentioned that you do the audible. Yeah. Nobody said, Joel, would you like to do the audible of your book? No one asked.

John Garrett [00:03:50]:
Wow. They just told you

Joel Zeff [00:03:52]:
somebody else was doing it. They sent me an email and said, hey. Audible has decided they wanna do your book. It’s a big deal. They don’t choose all the books. And I’m like, oh, fantastic. That was it. And next thing I know, they said his name is George Newbern.

Joel Zeff [00:04:05]:
I didn’t know who George Newbern was. And I’m at lunch with my wife and a friend, and the friend knew who George Newbern was because, apparently, they were both went to Arkansas or something. I don’t know. And my wife goes, wait. George Newbern did your audible? I’m like, yeah. I guess. I don’t know who that is. And she goes, George Newbern.

Joel Zeff [00:04:26]:
I go, I guess. She goes, he’s the groom in father of the bride. I guess that’s a big movie. He was also in adventures in babysitting, cult classic.

John Garrett [00:04:36]:
Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:04:36]:
He was a a three episode arc in Friends. He was the Yeti, which is a big, you know, I guess, a character. He was in Scandal recently, and he’s the voice of animated Superman.

John Garrett [00:04:46]:
And the voice of Make the Right Choice.

Joel Zeff [00:04:48]:
And the voice of Make the Right Choice. Yeah. But I prefer a book.

John Garrett [00:04:52]:
Do you have a favorite actor or an actress?

Joel Zeff [00:04:54]:
When I was growing up, I was big into Humphrey Bogart, John Wayne, anybody in a western, Jimmy Stewart, because I love, like, those old westerns and or old black and white movies. Humphrey Bogart, like Treasure of Sierra Madre. We were just watching Casablanca the other night. But comedy wise, you know, Will Ferrell, for sure. I mean, just absolute one of my favorite. You can’t beat Tom Cruise in the Mission Impossible and and the Maverick. We were just watching that the other day.

John Garrett [00:05:24]:
How about, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Joel Zeff [00:05:27]:
Both. Huge on both. Yeah. I’m not picking against either one of those. I love both of them. I was really in the nineties, you know, Next Generation for Star Trek. And then Voyager, I was really into those. Deep Space Nine, I was really into those.

Joel Zeff [00:05:40]:
And as a kid growing up watching the original Star Trek, I’ve run into several Star Trek actors.

John Garrett [00:05:48]:
Wow.

Joel Zeff [00:05:48]:
Yeah. From original Sulu, we were in a restaurant together, kinda just waved at him. It was back before phones. You remember when you didn’t have a phone and you took pictures, you just hey.

John Garrett [00:06:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:06:05]:
You would just wave. Hey. That was it. That’s all you did. You’d say hi. That’s all you would do. The captain Janeway from Voyager, we were in admiral’s club, and my wife’s like, say hi. It’s like, I was too nervous because that was, like, right in the middle that I was really enjoying.

Joel Zeff [00:06:20]:
She’s like, she I mean, she was sitting literally right next to us.

John Garrett [00:06:23]:
Oh, so you could have just been like, hey. Really?

Joel Zeff [00:06:25]:
Hey. I love Voyager. No. Didn’t say it. The doctor on Voyager, the hologram, I don’t remember the actor’s name, but he was sitting in front of me on a plane. I did say hi to him. I’m like, I really enjoy Voyager. Nerd it out.

John Garrett [00:06:40]:
Are you real, or are you a hologram? Hey. Are you? That was awesome. Right?

Joel Zeff [00:06:44]:
But Star Wars, huge. Yeah. Absolutely. I still remember seeing at the Glenwood Theatre in Overland Park, Kansas, the original Star Wars, with my cousins for the first time, and it was just you just didn’t want that movie to end.

John Garrett [00:06:57]:
Yeah. I remember seeing, yeah, the original three in the theaters and, yeah, and just being like, man, that’s amazing. How about, your computer? More PC or Mac?

Joel Zeff [00:07:08]:
Again, I’m both. I’m on a Mac laptop, and I have a PC desktop.

John Garrett [00:07:12]:
Oh, fancy.

Joel Zeff [00:07:13]:
Yeah. I like to spread the love around.

John Garrett [00:07:15]:
Yeah. Alright. That’s pretty impressive. How about a favorite day of the week?

Joel Zeff [00:07:19]:
I like Sunday, just kinda hanging out, just relaxing.

John Garrett [00:07:22]:
No. That works. How about as a fun one, boxers or briefs? Boxers. Oh, okay.

Joel Zeff [00:07:28]:
That was a little intimate.

John Garrett [00:07:29]:
Right. Ice cream, cup, or cone?

Joel Zeff [00:07:32]:
Cone, but I kind of changed my diet, so I don’t eat ice cream too much anymore. But I would go with the cone if I had to choose.

John Garrett [00:07:41]:
How about tea or sweet tea?

Joel Zeff [00:07:44]:
Okay. Now we’re talking. This is where we’re starting to get serious. Now, finally, you ask a question that matters.

John Garrett [00:07:50]:
This feels more intimate to me, honestly.

Joel Zeff [00:07:53]:
Now if everyone’s listening, just pull over because this is gonna be some big stuff here. In on my LinkedIn profile, it says iced tea aficionado. It does. Yeah. I do unsweet, absolutely no lemon. Unsweet, no lemon. And I will go to restaurants purely based on their iced tea. I went lunch yesterday.

Joel Zeff [00:08:14]:
There’s a restaurant, and they have this kind of I don’t know. It’s like a blackberry hibiscus thing. If they sold it by the gallon, I would go in there twice a week and just, like, load it up, baby.

John Garrett [00:08:24]:
So you fancy it up even a little bit. Yeah. So it’s not just tea. It’s tea with

Joel Zeff [00:08:28]:
Or it’s well, brewed, not infuse brewed. The other thing about iced tea, don’t ever serve iced tea from a gun. You know, like a like the soda gun.

John Garrett [00:08:39]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:08:40]:
It’s not brewed tea. It’s in a huge canister, and I will send it back. Take it off the bill. Do not charge me for that heresy. Gross.

John Garrett [00:08:50]:
Okay. Alright.

Joel Zeff [00:08:50]:
And I’ve been known to have sweet tea. I’ve been known to spit it out. I’ve been known to accidentally someone’s frozen sweet tea, and I do a spit take. I go

John Garrett [00:09:01]:
That’s some serious sweetness. How about events? You prefer in person or virtual?

Joel Zeff [00:09:06]:
No. In person. The energy and the laughter and absolutely. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:09:10]:
I think it’s better for everybody, including the audience.

Joel Zeff [00:09:12]:
Yeah. I mean, I get virtual events, and I think during the pandemic, I think or after the pandemic, there was a backlash. You know? Oh, we’re back in person. But I think there is a place for virtual events. You know? It’s a way to connect with people and with a budget. You know? If you have a limited budget and there’s, you can have more opportunities. I don’t think virtual should take the place of in person events, but I think it should add to the opportunities to connect with people.

John Garrett [00:09:40]:
Between the in person events.

Joel Zeff [00:09:41]:
Yeah.

John Garrett [00:09:42]:
Yeah. I love it. How about a favorite number?

Joel Zeff [00:09:44]:
It’s usually whatever baseball whatever number my son he plays baseball, so whatever number his jersey is. He’s number 12 this year. So I guess 12

John Garrett [00:09:52]:
is Okay.

Joel Zeff [00:09:52]:
Favorite number right now. He was 30 for a while. He was 11 for a while. Those were favorite numbers. Whatever number jersey. But if we’re at the roulette table, I like to play birthdays, month and day, and some of those numbers correspond. Like, my daughter was born the minute was ’11, and my son liked to be number 11. And then he’s born in the month of ’11.

Joel Zeff [00:10:19]:
So, yeah, ’11. I’m gonna change my answer to ’11.

John Garrett [00:10:22]:
Okay. No. That’s fine. Like, it’s it’s not a common question you get asked, I don’t think. So we had to process it. So I like to see how the mind of Joel Zeph works. Yeah. So we got three more.

John Garrett [00:10:31]:
What’s a typical breakfast?

Joel Zeff [00:10:33]:
Usually pretty fruit. I had a banana today. If I’m home, it’s usually some fruit. I I have been on an avocado toast kick for the last year, make my own avocado toast. If I’m out and about, I’ll probably do an egg white omelet. No. I don’t eat bacon anymore. I used to like love bacon, but I don’t I don’t eat that anymore.

John Garrett [00:10:55]:
Probably because it’s made of ice cream. That’s probably why.

Joel Zeff [00:10:57]:
It’s made of ice cream. Yeah. That’s what I heard.

John Garrett [00:11:01]:
Now this is another draw a line in the sand when toilet paper roll, you go over or under?

Joel Zeff [00:11:05]:
I go over, and I think sometimes my wife does under, and I have to switch it. This is I think, kind of seems like a recent development too.

John Garrett [00:11:17]:
Oh, interesting. When did we start

Joel Zeff [00:11:19]:
putting it under? I go, and so that’s not good.

John Garrett [00:11:24]:
Well, it’s funny how you use the we pronoun, like, as if you’re also doing it. It’s like Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:11:28]:
What is it? Why are we using this is a group effort, and I thought we

John Garrett [00:11:32]:
had Right.

Joel Zeff [00:11:33]:
I thought we had established. We’re an over family.

John Garrett [00:11:36]:
Absolutely. There needs to be a vote. The last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Joel Zeff [00:11:40]:
I would say my friends. I love old friends. You know? I think they’re

John Garrett [00:11:45]:
Doing a Ben Richter song now?

Joel Zeff [00:11:46]:
Is that a song?

John Garrett [00:11:47]:
Yeah. Old friends. It’s a great one.

Joel Zeff [00:11:49]:
One of the fun things that I get to do when I travel and speak is to visit friends. You know? And I try in any city, try to say, hey. I was just in Louisville, and one of my first friends in my first job, which was thirty five years ago this year, we got together and met for lunch. And so that’s the cool thing. So, yeah, my friends, I would say.

John Garrett [00:12:07]:
No. I like it, man. That’s great.

Joel Zeff [00:12:09]:
But I do own my family. Right.

John Garrett [00:12:12]:
Not your friends. And I appreciate being in that circle of sorts. So let’s talk about improv and comedy, and how’d you get started with that?

Joel Zeff [00:12:22]:
When I moved to Dallas so I was recruited down to Dallas to work at a newspaper as a newspaper reporter. And that first weekend, some friends took me to an improv show. And it was like the movies when the protagonist finds their true passion, their true love.

John Garrett [00:12:38]:
Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:12:38]:
And the music goes

John Garrett [00:12:41]:
Angels are singing?

Joel Zeff [00:12:42]:
Angels are singing. If it’s a Disney movie, there’s little birds that are flying around animated. Yep. It was that moment. I was an audience volunteer, and it just was it was a life changing moment. And I, like, I didn’t know how I was going to do it, or I didn’t know the process. They were having workshops, and I signed up to take a workshop. And it was just the hugest respite out of my week because my job was tough.

Joel Zeff [00:13:09]:
I just moved to a new city. I didn’t necessarily really like my job, and it was this respite. And it was this oasis, and it was amazing feeling. And I took a couple more workshops, and eventually, when that newspaper closed six months after I moved to Dallas, by the way, and that’s a whole another that’s a whole another story, which we can talk about if we want. And I started doing stand up. I had free time and a severance check. And that says comedy in every language.

John Garrett [00:13:42]:
Right? There you go. There you go. I love it.

Joel Zeff [00:13:45]:
Because it was something I always wanted to do. So I started doing stand up, and I and then I auditioned to be in the improv troupe. And, miraculously, they took me, and I joined the troupe. They had their own theater in Downtown Dallas, and it was a passion. It was a love, and that’s really when I found what I was meant to do. And now I was figuring out the process of how do I make this a living? How do I make this a career? Because, you know, you’re not getting paid very much, a few dollars here.

John Garrett [00:14:14]:
No. No. It’s like learning a trade in trade school. You know? Like, you’re a really good welder, but you can’t make a living being in here. You gotta go out and use your tools for good.

Joel Zeff [00:14:24]:
And if you’re doing comedy and somebody gives you $25.30 bucks, you’re like, I’m professional.

John Garrett [00:14:29]:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I have a copy of my first check. The weekend I did, MC’d the comedy club on State Street in Madison, Wisconsin. I did five shows for a hundred and $25 total, and I made a copy of the check, and I have it framed because I got paid to tell jokes. And I remember standing on stage thinking to myself, while people are laughing, I’m like, I’m getting paid to do this. This is crazy. Like, this is insane.

John Garrett [00:14:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I’m stealing from everyone.

Joel Zeff [00:14:57]:
Yeah. Like, I did an event in Denton, Texas. It was some bar, club, and they gave me some cash or something. And I I framed that dollar.

John Garrett [00:15:05]:
Yeah. Right. There you go.

Joel Zeff [00:15:06]:
I mean, it was just, like, amazing. And then when I I started working at PR agency, and then I worked at ad agency because I like to pay rent and eat. Right.

John Garrett [00:15:16]:
You know? Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:15:17]:
Yeah. The comedy wasn’t doing much as far as money. And so but one of my clients, thank god, said, hey. I know you do improv on the weekend. Can you come up and do some of that for us? We’re having this executive retreat. And then that’s when the light bulb started flickering because they had fun, I had fun. And it was all men, all VP level, small group, technology company. So you’re like, oh, this is the audience.

Joel Zeff [00:15:42]:
Right.

John Garrett [00:15:44]:
They’re gonna be really creative with

Joel Zeff [00:15:46]:
Oh, this is the comedy.

John Garrett [00:15:47]:
You find in a refrigerator.

Joel Zeff [00:15:49]:
This is a comedy audience. But they had fun, and I had fun. And that’s when it started flickering, and the idea started germinating that I could do this for other events or other groups. And that’s I started focusing on it. And people ask me where I started. Ninety seven is when I say I’m a speaker because I made a video. I’ve done things before that, but I made a demo video. I started sending it out.

Joel Zeff [00:16:15]:
I go, this is a big part of what I’m doing. And I was still doing PR and advertising on my own at that time. And slowly, the speaking started taking over the whole business. And probably by ninety nine, two thousand, it had taken over. And when I first started, I didn’t know speakers existed. I didn’t know there were speaker bureaus. I didn’t know there were conferences and they hired people to come speak to their audience. I had no idea.

John Garrett [00:16:41]:
I thought they all, like, had to walk on the moon or win the Super Bowl or get your arm bit off by a shark.

Joel Zeff [00:16:45]:
Or they’re motivational.

John Garrett [00:16:46]:
Like, you gotta believe. Here’s the acronym to start your day. And I’m like, nope. Not unless it’s NOPE, n o p e, then I’m not doing it.

Joel Zeff [00:16:55]:
We’re in agreement. I hate acronyms too. People, power, energy, opportunity. No.

John Garrett [00:17:02]:
I I gotta go to the bathroom for the next hour.

Joel Zeff [00:17:05]:
I’ll see

John Garrett [00:17:05]:
you guys later. Yeah. Like, yeah. I’m out. No. That’s that’s so awesome, man. Do you have any favorite stories from your early comedy days? Some of those shows that you did that that come to mind that were some of the more fun ones?

Joel Zeff [00:17:16]:
Usually, those are always the ones that you think about that go into total. I remember the comedy trip we were in Wisconsin, Rippon, Wisconsin, r I c o n. And it was the college there, Rippon College. And I think Harrison Ford went there for a short time. That was their claim to fame. And we were booked to speak at their amphitheater. And they said this many times. We’re speaking at the amphitheater, and, I call it porch.

Joel Zeff [00:17:45]:
I don’t know where amphitheater it looked like porch to me. And, I remember afterwards, the whoever booked this is the whole comedy troop, whoever booked us, their comment was, well, we could hear you. That was the big after program comment. We could hear you.

John Garrett [00:18:04]:
That’s so funny.

Joel Zeff [00:18:06]:
I remember doing standup at, it was some kind of fair. So it was a big tent in a parking lot.

John Garrett [00:18:12]:
Oh my gosh. I’m already sweating hearing this story. Oh my gosh.

Joel Zeff [00:18:16]:
And the tent was, like, there was something you know, it was divided. Like, something’s going on in this half of the tent, and we’re doing comedy this half of the tent. No. What would you think would be the worst thing that could happen on the other side of that tent?

John Garrett [00:18:30]:
Like chainsaw carving or, like, I don’t know. Like guess. Are you serious?

Joel Zeff [00:18:34]:
It was ice carving.

John Garrett [00:18:36]:
Oh my god. God. Just something loud that’s gonna be consistent.

Joel Zeff [00:18:44]:
It was an ice carving demonstration with chainsaws.

John Garrett [00:18:48]:
And a tarp is divi well that’ll keep the noise out. That’ll be

Joel Zeff [00:18:53]:
That’s perfectly fine.

John Garrett [00:18:54]:
It probably didn’t even keep the ice shavings out, actually. They were probably still flying over and under. That’s amazing. Oh my

Joel Zeff [00:19:00]:
god. Always one of my absolute favorite. I remember doing stand up with this guy. He went on to LA as a writer. Do you remember the game where you make a circle below your waist?

John Garrett [00:19:12]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:19:13]:
Look at circle somebody or You could punch somebody and then you have to and because we’re stupid comedians when we were playing that game

John Garrett [00:19:20]:
Like, we’re 12. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:19:22]:
Yeah. Like, we’re 12. And so I’m doing stand up at this club called the backdoor comedy club. It was a nice stage, and there was a window, but it was a curtain in front of the window. Right? There’s a black curtain. That’s why you’re. And so I’m doing my set, and I hear this bam bam bam. I hear this just smashing on the window, which had never happened because I think, like, there’s bushes.

Joel Zeff [00:19:45]:
It’s not like a window that’s facing the street. It’s like an alley and, you know, and if there’s bushes and, you know, it’s not a window that anybody’s looking out of. Right?

John Garrett [00:19:54]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:19:55]:
And bang up. Bam. I’m like, what the and I take the curtain back, and there’s this comedian with the circle.

John Garrett [00:20:05]:
I totally, 100% believe this. That’s awesome. Absolutely would have happened. The audience is like, what is going on? I don’t understand, and it’s just inside game that you guys have going. I love it.

Joel Zeff [00:20:17]:
So that was my home club for a long time. They would do comedy four nights a week. And, you know, sign up and everything, and you move up the list and, you know, you get a little more time as you get more experience. And so many of those shows were really just for the convenience and

John Garrett [00:20:31]:
not for the audience

Joel Zeff [00:20:32]:
at all.

John Garrett [00:20:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it’s cool how you alluded to earlier how people at work did know this improv comedy side of you. They knew that you were part was there ever a part of you that was like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t share my outside of work Joel at work?

Joel Zeff [00:20:47]:
Sometimes I do keep it pretty separate, like, you know, because it does sometimes color how people interact with you.

John Garrett [00:20:55]:
Oh, man. It’s so annoying when people feel like they have to be on all the time, or they think that you’re just, like, this foul mouth, like, below the waist jokes, you know, only. And it’s like, no. There’s a lot of different kinds of comedy. Like, what did you

Joel Zeff [00:21:09]:
But, I mean, I tried to keep the worlds a little bit separate, and then sometimes there would be a little bit of a mix.

John Garrett [00:21:17]:
Well, that led to where you are now. I mean, had you kept them separate, this never would have happened. You would never would have gotten that opportunity.

Joel Zeff [00:21:24]:
No. Because it really was Texas Instruments saying and giving me the idea that this could be something. And at that time, I was just like, well, just be I’m just gonna do some improv games, and we’re gonna talk about creativity, and that’s it. And then just like anything, you know, I love when you’re talking about your and. Just like anything, that was my and. That was just, you know, my love, my passion. And the more time you suspend on your passion and on your love, then all of a sudden, just opportunities start to open up. Right? Around people that have a passion for something.

Joel Zeff [00:21:56]:
And I would get phone calls. Hey. We got 200 people. Can you come do some improv and talk about teamwork? Yes. Yeah. I mean, yes. You would just say, yeah, and I would figure it out later.

John Garrett [00:22:09]:
Right? That’s the improv. We’re all improvising now. Like

Joel Zeff [00:22:14]:
There are many times I’m sitting calling up a friend, another improviser, and going, hey. What game do you think would be good? I got these 200 people. I’m like, uh-huh. Yeah. That okay. Yeah. I could do that. Uh-huh.

Joel Zeff [00:22:28]:
That that’d be good.

John Garrett [00:22:29]:
They’re in there doing that one now. Can we Yeah. I do that.

Joel Zeff [00:22:32]:
I did that yesterday. And the message came organically. I would play the improv game, and then I would start talking and sharing my passion for improv, sharing what I love. I would say something. I’m like, oh, that’s great. I’m gonna say that again. I need to remember that. And it was always organic.

Joel Zeff [00:22:48]:
It was always just kind of speaking from a place of love and sharing improv, sharing what I loved about improv, what it taught me, and it just evolved. And it continues to evolve today. I’ve never sat down and said, oh, I’m gonna talk about this, and then I’m gonna talk about that. And this is what’s really important. It was just an evolution of sharing my passion.

John Garrett [00:23:08]:
I think that’s so great in how that little bit of letting the hands come through, you know, led to, you know, where we are now. And, obviously, there were skills that you brought to work that come from the improv side, which is what you teach people now and speak about now, which is great. You know? Because there’s expertise that we have that other people that were in the PR company or other people that were at the newspaper or whatever had the similar skills on paper, but those and skills were different and set you apart.

Joel Zeff [00:23:41]:
The improv really enhanced those skills of communication, of being quick, and being confident. Improv, I think, really what sets really great improvisers apart, I think, is a confidence and not being afraid to make a mistake, not being afraid to get out of their comfort zone, not being afraid to take that risk. And so when you do that, it’s kind of very freeing, and that’s where that creativity comes from, and that’s where that innovation comes from. And and so it also was just being making that connection to what makes people laugh. And when people laugh, that’s really special. And I always say this profession, speaking and improv, it chose me because this is what I was meant to do to. When I go speak at a keynote, one of the first things I say is, like, if all you do is laugh, I’m cool. There’s no better way to spend an hour than laughter because it bonds us, it connects us.

Joel Zeff [00:24:39]:
The ROI on just laughing together is huge. But I wanna talk about some of these choices that improv taught me. All that was enhanced by just following my passion, your what you call your hand, and just enjoying it and loving it and not worrying about how much do I get paid or is this my career. If you gave me a $50 Chili’s gift card and a hoodie

John Garrett [00:25:04]:
There you oh, and the hoodie. There you I knew there was gonna be an and. Like, it’s

Joel Zeff [00:25:08]:
I remember, yeah, saying to my, at the time, girlfriend, who’s now my wife, like, they’re nuts. They gave me $50 in Chili’s gift cards. We could use it at Chili’s. We could use it on the border. Right?

John Garrett [00:25:21]:
That’s really real. You threes in there?

Joel Zeff [00:25:23]:
This is amazing. And so if you follow that passion, eventually, you’re gonna figure out how to make it a career if that’s what you want or make it into something.

John Garrett [00:25:32]:
And it doesn’t have to be like you said. I mean, it can just be a thing because there’s other dimensions to Joel than journalist, Which you come out of school, you know, look I spent a lot of money and a lot of time on learning how to be a journalist so I’m a journalist. And you come out and that’s what you are and that’s what you tell yourself you are and the world also tells you that’s what you are and then we just assume that identity. And we forget about, no I’m a journalist and all these other things. So it’s important to remember that there’s these other dimensions to who we are and really if you think about it that journalist piece of you or the PR, you know, ad side of you is such is probably the smallest if you really think about it. Friends, family, faith, hobbies, passions, interests are so much more of who Joel is, but yet we let the smallest one become our whole identity. It’s wild to me.

Joel Zeff [00:26:21]:
It was always, for me, kind of a battle, really. You know, like the Batman Two Face? Sure. Like the character Two Face? So I had this very responsible side. I’m gonna go to college. I’m gonna get a career. You know? I wanna tell people stories, help the world. And then there was the other side was the comedy side. In high school, I did a stand up in front of my whole high school.

John Garrett [00:26:41]:
Wow. Okay.

Joel Zeff [00:26:42]:
Yeah. And if you remember high school, not everybody is excited about

John Garrett [00:26:46]:
No. No. And it was probably in a gym, which makes me also wanna throw up.

Joel Zeff [00:26:50]:
It was in the gym. And so well, before, I did it in eighth grade. I did the stand up in eighth grade

John Garrett [00:26:55]:
Oh, okay. Alright.

Joel Zeff [00:26:56]:
In front of the whole grade. This was just the grade. It was a talent show, and I was, you know I remember I I had some props. I was doing some impressions.

John Garrett [00:27:06]:
There you go.

Joel Zeff [00:27:07]:
The one thing I remember is that it was going well. I do remember that. And then the bell rang, and we came back the next day. I had to pick up my ad.

John Garrett [00:27:15]:
I’m like,

Joel Zeff [00:27:18]:
no. I’m like, I’m gonna write some more stuff. You’re gonna give me more time? You guys are insane. Right. And then so my senior year and I was in theater in high school. I was in theater, and so, you know, I did a lot of the comedies. And and even then, I was improvising a lot. I would add my own

John Garrett [00:27:34]:
Yeah. Flavor. I can imagine.

Joel Zeff [00:27:37]:
And so they had a contest for guys. It was called mister Oak Park. By the way, I don’t know if you know this, but you’re speaking to Mr. Oak Park 1986.

John Garrett [00:27:47]:
Nice. I did I’ll have to redo the intro for the show. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:27:50]:
You probably should. That in there. You probably should. Took you 665 episodes to bring on Mr. Oak Park nineteen eighty six.

John Garrett [00:27:57]:
I had to find them. And this is Oak Park, Kansas?

Joel Zeff [00:28:00]:
No. This is the high school, Oak Park High School, which is in Kansas City, Missouri.

John Garrett [00:28:04]:
Oh, in Kansas City?

Joel Zeff [00:28:05]:
There’s a mall called Oak Park, which is in Kansas. This is Oak Park High School, which is in Missouri.

John Garrett [00:28:10]:
Oh, got it. Interesting. Yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:28:12]:
This is complicated. I know.

John Garrett [00:28:13]:
It is. Kansas City is messed up like that.

Joel Zeff [00:28:15]:
It’s very confusing to those who are uneducated. There’s two states, two cities.

John Garrett [00:28:21]:
It’s a weird thing. It’s a with totally different cities.

Joel Zeff [00:28:23]:
They’re like, we could save money if we just named the city the same on both sides. I’m like, you could.

John Garrett [00:28:29]:
Bluefield, West Virginia and Bluefield, Virginia. Same thing. Yeah. That that’s how much comedy I’ve done when you know you’ve been through Bluefield, West Virginia.

Joel Zeff [00:28:37]:
Like I’ve never been to either Bluefield, but I’m excited to go someday.

John Garrett [00:28:40]:
No. You’re not. No. You’re not.

Joel Zeff [00:28:42]:
So they had a comp it was a it was like a, you know, a talent show. We had tuxedo. There’s bathing suits. All there were judges. Whole thing. So I did stand up, and I did mostly impressions of the principals and, you know

John Garrett [00:28:56]:
There you go. I’m graduating anyway. Do some out.

Joel Zeff [00:29:00]:
I won for my comedy. I won for my comedy. And so the principal’s name was, doctor Kaylor. And he said, you should do stand up in front of the I think you should do that stand up in front of the whole school. Maybe we’ll do two or three other acts, and we’ll do, like, a talent act. You’ve kind of inspired me. What do you think? I mean, he brought me into his office to ask, just to see if I would do this, one, if this was a good idea. So I said, sure.

Joel Zeff [00:29:24]:
Not really realizing what I had signed up for. Because, you know, there’s all different groups in high school, and not all of them are excited for your comedy.

John Garrett [00:29:33]:
Nope. You set your own trap there, Joel. That’s what you just did.

Joel Zeff [00:29:37]:
Here’s what I learned. Find something that we can all laugh at together. If we make fun of authority, we make fun of principals, there’s not a group in that building that’s not

John Garrett [00:29:48]:
gonna enjoy that. Including the other teachers.

Joel Zeff [00:29:50]:
Including their teachers. So I was a hit.

John Garrett [00:29:53]:
Oh, okay. Alright.

Joel Zeff [00:29:54]:
Yep. I was a hit.

John Garrett [00:29:55]:
I love it.

Joel Zeff [00:29:56]:
So yeah. So I had these two worlds. And it took losing my job and having free time to say, I’m gonna go find a club and do stand up, and I’m gonna go take an improv workshop, and I’m gonna start trying to figure this out. And, didn’t know the direction or how or why, and it was a really important choice in my life because it led me to where I am today, 2,500 corporate events, sharing improv and my humor, but also talking about what improv taught me as far as teamwork and leadership and change and passion and communication. And so it was really what I was meant to do. And in a different multiverse, I probably moved to Chicago or LA and joined the Groundlings or Second City. And and then this past weekend, I would have been celebrating my stint on Saturday Night Live as the fiftieth, but I did not do that because I was meant to do this.

John Garrett [00:30:50]:
Right. And this podcast with John Garrett. So here we are. It all comes full circle. I love it, man. And I think it’s great because there are all those other dimensions to us. There’s the sports fan side of you because once you make that shift to where your end becomes your career, you still have to have something else. There’s still other dimensions to you.

John Garrett [00:31:08]:
It’s not like you just go from one dimension to another one dimension. You know, there’s other parts and it’s equally important, I think, that you still have these other things.

Joel Zeff [00:31:17]:
Yeah. I mean, really, you asked we were talking before, you know, where do I spend my time? My son plays baseball. And if anybody listening understands and their child plays youth sports, and that’s pretty much what our social circle is. What we do, where we go is baseball.

John Garrett [00:31:34]:
We’re on vacation to a baseball tournament.

Joel Zeff [00:31:36]:
To Gulf Shores, Alabama to watch you play baseball.

John Garrett [00:31:39]:
Right.

Joel Zeff [00:31:40]:
And that part of my life is ending here in a couple months. He’s a senior in high school, and he’s made the decision that he’s not gonna play baseball in college. That he doesn’t want to pursue that. And so what started when he was three and four, and he’s 18 now, so fourteen fifteen fourteen to fifteen years of baseball, and we’ve been a baseball family in the cold, in the heat, in the rain, in the sleet, in the snow, in the wind, in the dust. You know, it’s been a really powerful journey of learning and discovery, and it’s gonna be pretty emotional here in a couple months of that ending.

John Garrett [00:32:16]:
That’s the thing that I’ve learned from the book and people that have read it is I get feedback from stay at home parents that are like, you know, I lost my identity in my children, and then when my children go off to college or graduate college and go off to life, I don’t know who I am anymore. Or people that are retiring from a career. Like, I don’t know who I am outside of this, you know, logoed fleece that I’m wearing or whatever.

Joel Zeff [00:32:41]:
I do love a logo fleece.

John Garrett [00:32:43]:
I’ve got a ton of them. And the clients that give me logo fleece, I amen to that.

Joel Zeff [00:32:47]:
I got one in the mail the other day from a client that I spoke to last month. It was a North Face Zip Up. It’s like my new favorite. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:32:56]:
There you go. Everyone listening now is gonna just start giving out fleeces to their speakers instead.

Joel Zeff [00:33:00]:
My god. Yeah. It’s oh, it’s just so warm and nice.

John Garrett [00:33:03]:
But I mean, that’s the thing that’s so important is we lose our identities in these other things that are important, But sometimes it’s okay to be a little bit selfish. And what do I love? What do I enjoy? Who am I outside of all these other things? And to do that on occasion, it doesn’t have to be every week or whatever. But, you know, it’s important that those other pieces of us still exist and that we acknowledge them type of thing. So

Joel Zeff [00:33:27]:
And I think it each helps the other. For instance, when I was doing improv and then working at the PR and advertising team, see, the skill sets were very similar, and I just found a way to combine the two. What made somebody successful here made somebody successful here. And so I was using skills. I still use my journalism skills as a speaker. I still use the skills I learned in PR and advertising as a speaker.

John Garrett [00:33:55]:
Hundred percent.

Joel Zeff [00:33:56]:
It’s the same skill set. I’m just kind of making it, directing it in a different way. And what I tell people, when especially when I speak to students, I always say, figure out what you would do for free. What do you love? What is your, like, what you say your aunt? What is it? I love working out. I love social media. I love hunting. I love, you know, collecting sneakers. What is it? Because there is a career.

Joel Zeff [00:34:24]:
There is an industry that’s based on what you would do for free. And that’s when you really follow your passion and what you really love. And my encouragement to any student or person thinking about a career change or what they wanna do is start thinking about what you love and what you would do for free, and then start going that direction. And you’re gonna figure out there’s a way to make a living at that. And that’s when your job or career becomes a passion and a love. And that’s really a special place. And for those that are lucky, and I consider myself lucky, you’re obviously lucky.

John Garrett [00:35:04]:
Well, I’m talking to you. So I’m Yeah. You are.

Joel Zeff [00:35:06]:
Like Number 665, baby. So figure out what you would do for free. And when you have that passion, when you have that love and it’s not a job, man, you’re so lucky.

John Garrett [00:35:16]:
And even if it is accounting or law or whatever, you can do it in that industry. You can do it for those kind of people. You know, it doesn’t have to be, you know, you’re not in the deep. You know, you can be, you know, doing some sort of, you know, PR or, you know, journalism or whatever, you know, for that industry, for those sports, for whatever. Absolutely.

Joel Zeff [00:35:35]:
Being accountant, you know, people think that you can only love the creative type of job, and that’s untrue. My accountant loves being an accountant. Thank god. I can’t do numbers. Right? If you love accounting, then that’s your love. That’s your passion.

John Garrett [00:35:50]:
I don’t know if you do it for free, though, to be honest, but, you know, you’d be surprised.

Joel Zeff [00:35:54]:
I tried to bring him down.

John Garrett [00:35:55]:
You do try to get him to do it for free. You give him some of your fleeces?

Joel Zeff [00:35:59]:
Yeah. I’m like, how many books can we trade him down?

John Garrett [00:36:02]:
Countants love fleeces too. I’ll tell you that much. Oh, yeah. It is a fast thing. Yeah. Yeah. This is great, Joel, and and such great advice that you you gave as well and what a great way to wrap up, but I feel like before we end the episode it’s only fair that I turn the tables and I’m very scared and unrelenting to do this, but we’re gonna make this the Joel Zeff podcast. I’m all yours.

John Garrett [00:36:26]:
Since I peppered you with questions at the beginning, I’ll give you two or three. If you’d like to ask me, I’ll be on the hot seat here. This is probably the worst decision I’ve ever made in my entire life, not just career, But here we go.

Joel Zeff [00:36:37]:
Alright. Tell us about the worst bombing experience, either as a comedian or as a speaker.

John Garrett [00:36:45]:
Yeah. I would say it was when I was doing comedy, but on occasion, you would get these corporate gigs. So it’s the ones that would pay you, you know, the $500 or whatever and you’re like, what? This is now they’re extra crazy. And so it was for real estate agents, like residential real estate agents. So I went out and I got a list of the attendees and I went to their pages and I got their pictures. And I put them up on the screen and like one in one at a time. And the first one I put up and I was just like, where is this person? And it’s, you know a Glamour Shots picture from twenty years ago because real estate agents don’t like to update their pictures.

Joel Zeff [00:37:23]:
And they always choose the wrong photographer too.

John Garrett [00:37:25]:
Oh yeah. A lot of makeup, lot of hairspray. Lot of mall. Yeah. A lot of mall photography. And completely in denial as to what they look like now. And so I was like, let’s have a little fun bit of fun and call it out. Here’s the thing.

John Garrett [00:37:40]:
They circle the wagons faster than any group I’ve ever seen and they will, despite knowing that it’s hilarious and that it’s true, will side with their compadre who they don’t even know because they think that theirs is next because it probably is. And so that was pretty awesome. And that was early on, and they wanted me to do an hour. That was about three or four minutes in.

Joel Zeff [00:38:02]:
I think it’s a great bit. I think it’s a fantastic bit.

John Garrett [00:38:05]:
It was amazing. I mean, it was one of those where the comedians would have been in the back of the room, like, exploding in laughter and everyone else just staring at you. Like, how dare you say the truth?

Joel Zeff [00:38:17]:
No. I would try it a couple more times. I would try it a couple more times before you abandon that bit.

John Garrett [00:38:21]:
Real estate agents, not my people. I figured that out.

Joel Zeff [00:38:24]:
Before I ask you the second question, one of my worst experiences as a speaker was real estate agents as well. Oh. Yeah. It was an association. I gave him a special deal. We’re in the ballroom or the convention center. And so they had set up the stage and the seating, and then surrounding all that was a trade show.

John Garrett [00:38:43]:
Ah, there you go.

Joel Zeff [00:38:45]:
And the people running the show said the trade show ends on the agenda, ends at whatever 10:00, and then you speak at, you know, whatever, 10:15. Nobody left the trade show.

John Garrett [00:38:57]:
It’s like Oh my gosh.

Joel Zeff [00:38:58]:
These two ladies were trying, no. The trade show’s ending. Can everybody come sit down? And it was just such a nobody was listening. And certainly the people that were had bought the boost because they spent the money, and they’re trying to sell whatever their wares are to these real estate people. And so they’re all of a sudden, they just introduced me. And so I jump on I get on stage, and I turned to the AV person. I was in staying right next to the AV person. I go, this is not gonna go well.

Joel Zeff [00:39:27]:
I jump on stage, and it just right next to the stage was a booth that had a wheel of fortune.

John Garrett [00:39:39]:
I feel like you have a track record of wheel of fortune, ice sculpture. Like, this is nuts.

Joel Zeff [00:39:46]:
Yeah. And so tried to use humor to get everybody to come sit down. I tried to guilt them. That didn’t work. I tried to be stern. Did not work.

John Garrett [00:39:54]:
Now they hate you. Oh, yeah.

Joel Zeff [00:39:56]:
So about ten minutes in, I’m like, good night, and I walked off stage. I’m like, this is not conducive to anything or what we discussed in the contract.

John Garrett [00:40:07]:
No. It’s brutal. No. I mean, my setup was fine. I wish I had some other excuses other than I was bringing legit comedy.

Joel Zeff [00:40:15]:
Yeah. Technically, it wasn’t my fault. You just weren’t funny.

John Garrett [00:40:20]:
Or too funny as well. I don’t yeah. Probably probably the first one.

Joel Zeff [00:40:23]:
That’s a good one. Alright. Give me your best celebrity interaction while working, speaking, or performing that you cross paths with, you shared the stage with. Best celebrity interaction.

John Garrett [00:40:37]:
Yeah. I mean, I’ve met and hung out. I mean, I opened for Louie Anderson several times. He was really awesome, really gracious.

Joel Zeff [00:40:44]:
You have to tell a story.

John Garrett [00:40:46]:
So we did a show in Connecticut for a really high end private elementary school thing.

Joel Zeff [00:40:55]:
Wow. Got quite a budget.

John Garrett [00:40:58]:
Well, yeah, they did. Because after the show, they were doing an auction where they were auctioning off items and I still had my corporate job and so I was like, alright. I’ll, you know, maybe help out the cause. So the first item was parking like at Yankee Stadium where the players park, four tickets front row right behind home plate, and after the game, you get to go into the locker room. And I’m like, we’re gonna start the bidding at $40,000 and I’m like, oh, apparently I’m not gonna be helping out the cause. Or there’s a string quartet and a box of wine to come to your house and perform and all I’m thinking is who has a house big enough for a string quartet and your friends? That’s just weird. So we do that show, we drive from there through like the night, not through the night, but a couple hours at night late down to Atlantic City, and then we do a Borgata thousand seat theater on the Friday and the Saturday. And that drive from Connecticut down was just the the funniest thing.

John Garrett [00:42:04]:
It was before smartphones as well, and I wish that we had a recording of it. It was just absolutely hysterical. I mean, between I mean, Louie, of course, but I was also funny at the time.

Joel Zeff [00:42:13]:
You weren’t doing your real estate humor. You were doing your top shelf humor.

John Garrett [00:42:16]:
No. We didn’t have PowerPoint.

Joel Zeff [00:42:17]:
Your top shelf stuff.

John Garrett [00:42:18]:
It was it was really funny, and, that was really awesome. I also worked a lot with Tom Wilson, who was Biff in Back to the Future, but he was doing stand up before Back to the Future and then obviously during and after. Really great guy, really funny, and just really down to earth and really cool guy as well. And met and hung out with Jay Leno several times. Really nice. No Star Trek people or maybe I just didn’t recognize him. That’s probably it.

Joel Zeff [00:42:43]:
I did an event with Jay Leno once. Super nice guy. And my favorite joke of his, the guy that was doing his introduction went on for a long time.

John Garrett [00:42:54]:
Oh, wow.

Joel Zeff [00:42:54]:
Because it was like a sponsorship plus

John Garrett [00:42:57]:
Yeah. It’s like people know who I

Joel Zeff [00:42:58]:
am. It’s still a long introduction, and Jay Leno came out and just absolutely just destroyed that guy. He’s like, that was the longest introduction of my career. He’s like, I went back to my room. I had lunch. I went to the spa. I came back. He was still going.

Joel Zeff [00:43:15]:
I left.

John Garrett [00:43:17]:
I flew back to LA.

Joel Zeff [00:43:18]:
I bought a new car.

John Garrett [00:43:19]:
Right. Right.

Joel Zeff [00:43:20]:
I was just yeah. That just happened.

John Garrett [00:43:22]:
I mean, I’ve I’ve had, you know, mostly very positive interactions with people, which has been really cool.

Joel Zeff [00:43:28]:
Okay. Do I I give you a third question?

John Garrett [00:43:30]:
You can if you’d like. It’s your show. It is my show.

Joel Zeff [00:43:33]:
By the way, you can learn more about Joel Zaff at JoelZaff.com. Don’t forget to order his book, Make the Right Choice, Lead with Passion, Elevate Your Team, and Unleash the Fun at Work at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or wherever you buy your books. Available on Audible, hard copy, and Kindle later this year. We’re here with John Garrett.

John Garrett [00:43:53]:
It’s about time this show got professional. We’re here

Joel Zeff [00:43:56]:
with John Garrett, author of What’s Your “And”? John, what is your “And”?

John Garrett [00:44:02]:
Oh, so many.

Joel Zeff [00:44:03]:
We are out of time, John. We’re gonna see you on episode 666. We’re gonna bring John Garrett back.

John Garrett [00:44:09]:
There you go. That’s awesome. Well, thank you, Joel, for being a part of this and being a living example of what’s your and, yeah, and just, for sharing all of this with everybody. So thanks so much, Joel.

Joel Zeff [00:44:21]:
I love this conversation. I’ve done a bunch of podcasts, and this was an actual conversation, and I absolutely just loved it. And I know how hard it is to do these podcasts, to put everything together and organize and schedule. And so, you know, for all your listeners, thank you for doing this and putting all this out there into the world. And hopefully, you know, it helps somebody or inspires somebody or motivates somebody. And so thank you, John, for doing this podcast.

John Garrett [00:44:49]:
Hey. That’s very meta of you. So now I have to thank you for thanking me for thanking you. Alright. I like this. This is good. And everybody listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Joel on stage, he does an amazing “ta-da”, or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to what’syourand.com. Links are there — also to get his book.

John Garrett [00:45:10]:
And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you do.