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Mark Koziel [00:00:05]:
Hi, this is Mark Koziel and when I’m not smoking meat and cigars, I’m listening to John Garrett on What’s Your “And”?.

John Garrett [00:00:11]:
Welcome to episode 685 of What’s Your “And.” This is John Garrett and each Wednesday I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and the those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond the job title. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are@whatsyourand.com the book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture.

John Garrett [00:00:54]:
And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon. Thank you so much for those and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast. You don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Mark Koziel. He’s the President and CEO of the AICPA-CIMA and now he’s with me here today.

John Garrett [00:01:25]:
Mark, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

Mark Koziel [00:01:28]:
Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.

John Garrett [00:01:30]:
This is going to be so great. We got to meet at the Washington Society of CPAs Member Summit a little bit ago and now get to hang out here. So thank you.

Mark Koziel [00:01:39]:
No, thank you. And it was funny because I’m a smoker by design and that usually requires a few extra questions after that.

John Garrett [00:01:47]:
Right, Exactly. I remember when you told me smoker, I was like, wait a minute, time out. I mean like I know we’re in Washington state, but still like hello. Yeah. And then it was smoking meat, smoking cigars, often at the same time. Absolutely. I do have some rapid fire questions I’d like to ask that I didn’t ask you then when we were in person, but I figured I’d see right here. So what was Your first concert?

Mark Koziel [00:02:07]:
Billy Joel.

John Garrett [00:02:08]:
Oh, solid. Wow. Back in the day. He’s playing the same songs now, by the way.

Mark Koziel [00:02:12]:
But like, I should have asked the question. You mean performing or attending? Because I actually sang back up to Paul Anka when I was 13. That would have been my first concert.

John Garrett [00:02:22]:
Wow. Okay.

Mark Koziel [00:02:24]:
Me and 20 others.

John Garrett [00:02:25]:
How did that happen? Holy cow.

Mark Koziel [00:02:27]:
It was a school thing. I was asked by my. My music teacher there who had this like private, little smaller group, and they. Every year when Paul Anka came to Buffalo, his group was asked to sing backup. I was the apple in the eye of my two grandmothers at the time.

John Garrett [00:02:43]:
Right. Yeah, you were. That’s a fantastic. How about puzzles? You go Sudoku? Crossword? Jigsaw puzzle?

Mark Koziel [00:02:49]:
Yeah, yeah.

John Garrett [00:02:51]:
Numbers. Numbers. How about a favorite color?

Mark Koziel [00:02:53]:
Blue.

John Garrett [00:02:54]:
Blue. Yeah, mine too. Yeah. Yeah. How about a least favorite color?

Mark Koziel [00:02:57]:
Red.

John Garrett [00:02:58]:
Red. Yeah. Opposites. Are you more sunrise or sunset?

Mark Koziel [00:03:02]:
I would say sunrise.

John Garrett [00:03:03]:
Okay. I’m not always up that early, so for you, man, that’s impressive. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Mark Koziel [00:03:10]:
Oh, that’s a hard one. Pass.

John Garrett [00:03:12]:
Pass. Okay, that works.

Mark Koziel [00:03:14]:
Yeah, it’s a hard one for me.

John Garrett [00:03:15]:
Yeah, no, no, not a lot of people. I mean, I’m not a huge TV movie person either, so. Yeah, totally fair. How about a toilet paper roll? Over or under?

Mark Koziel [00:03:23]:
Well, I’ve been trained to be over. I used to be under, but, you know, 20 something years. Almost 30 years of marriage turned me into an over.

John Garrett [00:03:30]:
There you go. That’s awesome. I love it. More Star wars or Star Trek?

Mark Koziel [00:03:35]:
Star wars, absolutely.

John Garrett [00:03:37]:
Okay. Okay. How about your computer? More PC or Mac?

Mark Koziel [00:03:40]:
PC.

John Garrett [00:03:41]:
PC. Yeah, me too. How about ice cream? You go in a cup or in a cone?

Mark Koziel [00:03:45]:
A cup is easier.

John Garrett [00:03:46]:
Yeah, for sure. Sometimes you can sweet talk them into putting the cone on top. Like a hat.

Mark Koziel [00:03:50]:
That’s right. Did you have Mr. Softy back in the day? Like they used to come through our neighborhood, right?

John Garrett [00:03:54]:
Oh, yeah, the truck.

Mark Koziel [00:03:55]:
Yeah, Yeah, I was in a cup.

John Garrett [00:03:57]:
Oh, good stuff. Good stuff. How about a favorite movie of all time?

Mark Koziel [00:04:02]:
Yeah, man, I got to put Star wars right on top of that. Right. So classic for me is the most of the Star Wars. But the first one for sure.

John Garrett [00:04:10]:
The first one, yeah, yeah, absolutely. A new hope. How about you fly a lot? Airplane. You go window seat or aisle seat?

Mark Koziel [00:04:16]:
Aisle. And usually first row.

John Garrett [00:04:19]:
Oh, okay. There you go. Oh, bulkhead. So you have to put everything up. Okay. Interesting. How about a favorite cartoon as a kid?

Mark Koziel [00:04:27]:
Bugs Bunny.

John Garrett [00:04:28]:
Oh, solid. Yeah, I’m always good. Always good. How about more balance sheet or Income statement.

Mark Koziel [00:04:34]:
I’m a balance sheet guy. Grew up auditing balance sheets. Right. If you get the balance sheet right, everything will flow.

John Garrett [00:04:41]:
Okay. Okay. There you go. There you go. I feel like half the audience is like, what? And although they’re all tax people, so they don’t worry about. They don’t worry about it. Yeah. How about a favorite number?

Mark Koziel [00:04:53]:
82.

John Garrett [00:04:53]:
82. Is there a reason?

Mark Koziel [00:04:55]:
Yeah, it was my football number. I wore it for all kinds of other sports along the way. It’s the flip of. My birthday is the 28th, so, yeah, it’s just been. It was my lucky number.

John Garrett [00:05:05]:
Love it. That’s awesome. We got two more pineapple on pizza. Yes or no?

Mark Koziel [00:05:10]:
Absolutely not.

John Garrett [00:05:11]:
Absolutely not. Hardcore. You didn’t have to get trained on that one. You. That’s from birth.

Mark Koziel [00:05:16]:
That was like, correct.

John Garrett [00:05:17]:
Okay. There you go. And the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own, I mean.

Mark Koziel [00:05:22]:
I think that goes back to my hobby. Right. You know, the fact that I have four grills. One is a komodo Joe, one is a big green egg. One is the new griddle, the Blackstone, and then I have a regular gas grill in case we want to do hot dogs one day. Everything else is a special cook.

John Garrett [00:05:36]:
That’s amazing. Yeah. So let’s jump right in here. So smoking meat, smoking cigars. I mean, so how did that. The smoking meat get started? Did you grow up around it, or was it later in life?

Mark Koziel [00:05:47]:
No, especially coming out of Buffalo. And a friend of mine had this big green egg, and I immediately fell in love with it when I saw his. So I go out and I buy one, knew nothing about it, and just started playing around with things. Now all of a sudden, started watching these barbecue shows. And, you know, Myron Mixon, that’s like one of my. I don’t have a favorite star, but I have a favorite barbecuer and Myron Mixon teaching me how to do a brisket.

John Garrett [00:06:12]:
Okay.

Mark Koziel [00:06:12]:
You know, and it’s just. It. It is expanded. Anything I could get on that. That grill, you could smoke just about anything. And it’s a lot of fun. And, you know, just being able to. That hardwood charcoal, going back to basics, if you will, of thing, you know, and if there’s any Traeger fans out.

Mark Koziel [00:06:31]:
Out there, you’re cheaters. You know, it needs to be hardwood charcoal. You know, all the Weber folks are calling me a cheater. I’m sure with my big green ag. It’s all ceramic and natural airflow, it works nice. But, yeah, I just fell in love with It. And it’s just so peaceful to be able to sit there and know you create some level of a product at the end of the day.

John Garrett [00:06:53]:
No. And how was it? I mean, I guess going in completely as an amateur. I mean, as a novice. And I would imagine the trial and error failing a bit. Was that tough, or was it more fun?

Mark Koziel [00:07:04]:
No, it was fun. But, you know, there’s one of the. My. My wife has a rule. Marianne. I’d never like saying my wife. Right. Like, I own her.

Mark Koziel [00:07:12]:
It’s Marianne, who I’m married to. She always was like, if we’re cooking for guests, you better have practiced it at least once before it’s going in front of anybody else.

John Garrett [00:07:22]:
That’s a good rule.

Mark Koziel [00:07:23]:
That was a good rule Thanksgiving, because I’ve done turkeys on it. Yep. Absolutely. Had to do practice runs before.

John Garrett [00:07:29]:
No, that. That’s awesome. So do you have a favorite thing. It sounds like brisket, or do you have things that are your favorites to go your.

Mark Koziel [00:07:37]:
You know, I feared brisket for a long time, and then I finally, you know, took the plunge. And it was Myron Mixon’s recipe that he’s like, you can have a brisket done in seven hours. Everybody’s like, 19 hours. And you gotta just. But his recipe is spot on every time has been fantastic. So I follow that. You know, pulled pork is always something that. It’s friendly to guests, it’s easy to do, and it’s an overnight cook.

Mark Koziel [00:08:05]:
You can let it go. What? I always have fun with those. When it’s done and I’ve pulled it and I have it in a container, I have a couple of different barbecue sauces sitting next to it. And I stand over everybody and I tell them. I’m like, you know, here’s a pulled pork. I said, there’s barbecue sauce here if you want it, but it doesn’t need it, and I will be offended if you touch it.

John Garrett [00:08:29]:
There you go. But you can do what you want. But you can also eat out in your car because you’re getting ready to drive home. That’s. That’s great, man. But I mean, you know, that’s. That’s another side of you, and it’s experimenting. It’s trying things out.

John Garrett [00:08:43]:
It’s. You know, I would imagine you weren’t able to do that always in your career side of things, you know, experimenting. Not really, you know, the highlight of the accounting profession.

Mark Koziel [00:08:52]:
No. I mean, we got to get it absolutely right. Right. You know, the idea of even talking about it, it’s amazing to Me, what a connection it’s made. I, I in a meeting two weeks ago with the gentleman and he says, so I hear you’re a smoker. And I’m like, okay, is it the cigar? Is it the grill? What are we talking about? It was the grill. So that was interesting.

John Garrett [00:09:14]:
That’s very cool. And somebody brought it up to you. That’s amazing. Yeah. And how does that feel to have someone ask about the human mark as opposed to the work title mark?

Mark Koziel [00:09:24]:
Yeah, I love it. The problem is then I just start spewing, you can’t shut me up. Then after that, once you get on that topic, you know, I’ve put out everything else, which is unfortunate for whoever I’m speaking to, but, you know, I do, it’s, it is a passion. I love it. That’s why whenever I get that downtime, that’s one of the first things I’m planning is what’s for dinner and how soon do I get started on cooking it.

John Garrett [00:09:48]:
Right, yeah. Because I mean, it is, you got to start doing some math. It’s like a fifth grade word problem. Like, okay, we want to have the turkey done at 5:00pm we got, you know, it’s like we got to start cooking yesterday. Like, what’s, this is crazy. Like, that’s hilarious. And so then the smoking cigars, did that come around the same time or was that, it was a little later.

Mark Koziel [00:10:07]:
I’m trying to think exactly when that had started. And I will tell you that that was probably one of my greatest career choices. Interesting, because starting with smoking cigars, it was pretty casual, you know, playing golf, you smoke a cigar, whatever. And then it became a little more frequent. So my first stint at AICPA, back when I was here from 06 to 2020, and then left and ran an international association of firms. And during that period, I had a lot of firm related meetings and with firm leaders. And all of a sudden I started to hang out with all these other firm leaders who smoke cigars.

John Garrett [00:10:47]:
Okay.

Mark Koziel [00:10:48]:
So it was amazing what I learned about firms from those two hours with, you know, for me, a cigar and a glass of wine. I don’t do hard liquor of any sort, so it’s, you know, enjoy a glass of wine every now and again. But those meetings were invaluable and I think really hoisted my career because I got a lot of respect from those firms. They understood who I was and, you know, I just got more information and that more information I got when I went to the next firm to speak to, I was armed with all of this intel from the market and you know, so that continues to current day and whether it’s, you know, it used to be the engage conference for aicpa. I’d go there, hang out cigars. We did kind hold court there. A number of us that were there and this year was a little too challenging for me to be out there because you know, it’s just in a different role, but it definitely benefited my career.

John Garrett [00:11:44]:
That’s interesting how. Yeah, I mean if you get into someone’s and it’s almost like you’re, you’re behind the curtain so they let their guard down, your guards down. It’s, it’s more human to human relationship and like you said, you get the real intel as opposed to the surface level PR comments that we’ve all polished and scrubbed. Yeah, that’s really powerful. Yeah. I mean just how amazing it is that having an and and then sharing it straight up made you better at your job.

Mark Koziel [00:12:12]:
That’s what I love about you, you talking about this. And it’s not just about the hobby, but I think for all of us. I don’t know why we think as, as CPAs, CGMAs, that we have to have all the answers that we become a little guarded about our information or maybe how we messed up somewhere along the way. But you know, having that open, honest conversation. About a month ago, I was in our London office with our SEMA team and it was an ask me anything session. And the first question asked of me is when was I ever truly scared? And I thought that was an interesting question. I was open and honest. It was when my son was born.

Mark Koziel [00:12:48]:
He was a preemie and they had to ship him from the hospital he was born into the children’s hospital downtown.

John Garrett [00:12:54]:
Oh my goodness.

Mark Koziel [00:12:55]:
Yeah, they had to sign a sheet of paper to say we’re not going to hold the hospital responsible if anything happens to them from point to point. And yeah, probably the scariest thing I’ve ever been through and we talked about it. So I think all of us have the opportunity to be a little more vulnerable with the team, especially you know, maybe our clients. But you know, clients are sharing a lot with us. I think it’s, it’s healthy to have that relationship.

John Garrett [00:13:22]:
Yeah. Because I was going to say, you know, how and having an and is. It doesn’t have to be like the scariest thing. I mean that’s really powerful to hear. It’s kind of that first step, kind of the baby pool, if you will, of like, hey, you know, we’ll get to the ocean, eventually, if you want. But, you know, just what do you like to do when you’re not here? You know, you’re a human being that we hired the whole human. So what’s the other parts of you? You know, as long as it’s not illegal or not super taboo, then, you know, hey, what’s up? You know, like, type of thing. And.

John Garrett [00:13:52]:
And then before you know it, all these connections, all this inside intel, all this, like, magic starts to happen just from a very simple thing.

Mark Koziel [00:14:00]:
Just that. And amazing how you do connect with. With others so quickly that you may not have known about before.

John Garrett [00:14:07]:
And because I feel like so many people, I mean, I did it when I was young in my career, they feel like it’s an or. Like I can only be a CPA or a smoker or, you know, a cigar smoker, or, you know, it’s an or. And there’s a wall here, and I can’t bring the two. The two shall never meet. And, you know, all of my message and my research and everything is, no, no, no, no. Zero walls. They’re meeting all the time. They’re always hanging out.

John Garrett [00:14:32]:
It’s always there.

Mark Koziel [00:14:33]:
Wasn’t there something crazy? Like when you did your presentation in Washington, Was there a trapeze artist?

John Garrett [00:14:39]:
Yeah, there was a tap dancer, like a lady. She was a little bit older. And there was a guy that races Porsche 911s. I mean, it was just like, man, this is the coolest group of people I’ve ever met type of thing, you know, and at the beginning, walking in, everyone’s like, it’s a CPA conference. You know, no one’s excited to come to this. And then all of a sudden, we blow the doors off with the humans in the room, and it’s like, man, like, I want to work with you, you know, type of thing.

Mark Koziel [00:15:05]:
And I think that the networking after that, your session got that much deeper because now all of a sudden, people want to learn more, right? It did. I mean, it was. It was a powerful session, so I appreciated being there for it.

John Garrett [00:15:17]:
No, I. Thank you, man. But I mean, how much do you think it matters that people have an and. Or. That there is the. We acknowledge the human behind the. The title.

Mark Koziel [00:15:27]:
You have to. I know. I think you said that, you know, it can’t be your kids or your family. Yeah, your family is your aunt always. But, you know, there’s other things. And I think even having that and. And then being able to share that with somebody. So I share smoking with my son occasionally.

Mark Koziel [00:15:42]:
The cigars he’s 26 now. He’s eligible. He doesn’t like that quite as much, but he’ll do it on occasion because he knows it’s a good connector or, you know, for us to pull a cook together and then, you know, do something. It’s just, it’s amazing how your and can transform your relationship with others with the same and. Or to get your family more involved in that.

John Garrett [00:16:02]:
Even if someone. I mean, I did stand up comedy working at Big four, There weren’t other comedians. I mean, people thought they were, but they were just annoying, you know, but there weren’t like, certainly people getting up on stage like I was. But, you know, people were curious and they were interested. They would ask about it. And so even if it’s not the same and it’s still awesome that the energy and the, the way people. I mean, you talking about smoking meat that like we were at lunch, I was like, man, this guy is fired up. You know, like.

John Garrett [00:16:28]:
And if I was like, hey, can you tell me about the latest fasb. I’m guessing not as fired up. Sometimes we are about work, but our. And we’re always fired up about. Which like you said, I mean, that poor person that asked you just a little bit ago about smoking, you’re like, oh, well, hopefully you have an extra hour because here we go down this journey. And how much is it on an organization to create that space for people to share their hands or how much is it on leadership to set the tone and lead by example?

Mark Koziel [00:16:56]:
I think it’s both. Right. So. And that’s where I said, like, even that, that conversation about ask me anything, that’s an important aspect. And then I think one of the questions I was asked back in January when I was in London was what was my favorite Christmas gift? Well, it was. It’s called the Drippy’s pan. That kind of like accordions up and down that you can, you know, marinate your meat in that and then you can actually prep. You can throw it in it and all I said that was my favorite gift and then asked, you know, how many times I used it since I got it, you know, for.

Mark Koziel [00:17:28]:
For holidays, in this last meeting. And I was ashamed to say I hadn’t used it at all, but there were a variety of reasons for that. So cool to keep those flowing and allowing for others. And I think me as a leader here inside of the association, I hope that I’m showing that openness and that’s allowing others to feel the same way.

John Garrett [00:17:48]:
Yeah. Because I mean, it. It just Matters so much that we acknowledge that we’re human beings that do accounting work, that do engineering work, that do whatever the work is that we do. I feel like we allow the job title to become our identity as opposed to just a shirt that we’re wearing at, you know, for the moment. You know, it’s a job title that we’re wearing for the. I mean, you’ve had several job titles through your career. People listening, same. They’re not tattooed on your forehead, you know, type of thing.

John Garrett [00:18:12]:
But I bet you if you had to get a tattoo, it’d be a green egg, probably. If there was one.

Mark Koziel [00:18:18]:
Absolutely. Absolutely would be something grilling related, right?

John Garrett [00:18:23]:
That’s fantastic. That’s awesome. So do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that has an and. And they feel like no one cares because it has nothing to do with my job?

Mark Koziel [00:18:32]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that. What is it that we talk about when we go to happy hours and things? I think this is part of the challenge with the pandemic and, you know, the remote work, and we’ve kind of lost a little bit of that involving the. And. And so, you know, I think you could be purposeful to say, I’m gonna connect with five people, and we’re gonna sit around, and we’re gonna talk about our. And so everybody bring up their. And whatever it is, and you start different clubs and groups around the ands, and you can really expand that in different ways. Or for me, it’d be like, you know, I’ve had people to the house. I’ve had committees to my house over the years, where I’ve been able to show them my hands.

Mark Koziel [00:19:13]:
Right. And those become great memories. So whatever your end is, pull somebody into that with you, if appropriate. If you’re a trapeze artist, please don’t take me on flying trapeze and tell me to just jump for the next one. I probably work out, but, you know, I. I do think in some of those safe zones, being able to display your hand is an incredible way to do it.

John Garrett [00:19:37]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it just makes them see you most alive, you know? I mean, man, he is on fire. It’s almost like on a deeper level, like, your soul is speaking through these things, and it’s not always the work where that happens, but you can take that energy and that enthusiasm and that connection, okay, now bring that to the work type of thing. And it’s not a distraction at all. And I love that how it’s like, invite people over, like, hey, come watch me do My thing. And if you do it too, that’s cool. You know, and if maybe you’re an associate level person, but you know way more about smoking than I do, so that’s awesome. Now you’re the alpha and I get.

Mark Koziel [00:20:18]:
To learn from you that, that, that’s an awesome way. And I love to learn from others doing that. I do have one tip, though, for anybody who is both a meat smoker and a cigar smoker. If you want to cover up the cigar smoke, do a porterhouse for about an hour and a half on the egg, and then you’re going to smell like the grill and you totally mask any cigar smoking.

John Garrett [00:20:41]:
That’s amazing. That’s a pro tip right there. That’s some next level stuff right there. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mark, for being a part of this. I feel like it’s only fair, though, that since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, none of which were what was your scariest thing ever? But I feel like it’s time to turn the tables. Make this the Mark Koziel podcast and I’m all yours. Whatever you’d like to ask.

John Garrett [00:21:02]:
I’m in the hot seat.

Mark Koziel [00:21:03]:
Favorite car?

John Garrett [00:21:04]:
Favorite car.

Mark Koziel [00:21:05]:
Oh, wow.

John Garrett [00:21:06]:
Yeah, So I would probably say a Ferrari. I think when I was a kid, I mean, I had the Lamborghini poster, the counter, like, you know, poster, but I feel like Ferrari just for some reason, even though I’m not a red guy. But just, I don’t know, it just.

Mark Koziel [00:21:20]:
Sounds fun to say favorite meat or favorite dinner.

John Garrett [00:21:23]:
You know, I think my brother lived in California for a while. And the tri tip. Oh, yeah, I think that was only there, I don’t know, in central California where. Where I’ve seen it. So, yeah, that was. That was pretty good. Pretty good.

Mark Koziel [00:21:37]:
Snake River Farms. Write that one down. It’s where you should buy all your meat. Are you. Am I able to do plugs commercial? Absolutely.

John Garrett [00:21:43]:
Yeah. That’s apparently the sponsor now.

Mark Koziel [00:21:45]:
So, like, it’s Snake River Farms. That’s where I buy all my. All my meat.

John Garrett [00:21:50]:
There you go. It’s also your podcast. I forgot. This is the Mark Kosio podcast. So of course you have sponsors.

Mark Koziel [00:21:56]:
Favorite dessert?

John Garrett [00:21:57]:
Oh, man. You know, like, I mean, I’m an ice cream guy. Cake and ice cream, brownie and ice. Like a la mode. Like. Yeah. Or those lava cake things. Like, I don’t even have to look at the dessert menu anymore.

John Garrett [00:22:09]:
Just anything that’s, yeah, really unhealthy for you.

Mark Koziel [00:22:13]:
Is favorite vacation spot.

John Garrett [00:22:15]:
Oh, man. Probably the Maldives. That was pretty awesome. Yeah. Just the middle of the ocean. Indian Ocean, man. That’s the best ocean, hands down. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:22:24]:
Pretty sweet.

Mark Koziel [00:22:25]:
Yeah, I heard of that place. We’re a Disney family, my wife and I. We’ve been going for just about 30 years, so it’s been. But. And then we’ve other great trips, too, so. But it’s our go to.

John Garrett [00:22:36]:
Yeah. No, that’s awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for being a part of what’s yous in and just being a living example of this philosophy. So thanks so much, Mark.

Mark Koziel [00:22:45]:
Thank you.

John Garrett [00:22:49]:
And everybody, everybody listening. If you’d like to see some pictures of Mark in action or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to www.whatsyourand.com everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcasts or whatever app you use, and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.