Welcome to Episode 136 of the Green Apple Podcast This is John Garrett. Each Wednesday, I interview a professional who just like me is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work, making them stand out like a green apple in a red apple world. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their And as in my guest Mark Lee was an accountant and a magician. Trust me, no one is ever saying, “Please tell me more about the accountant part,” and I’ve got a quick favor to ask you. If you like the show and are listening on your iTunes or your favorite Android app, don’t forget to hit subscribe so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. Every Wednesday I have a one-on-one interview. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

This week is absolutely no different with my guest Mark Lee. After spending many years in public accounting, he’s now a consultant for Sole Practitioner Accountants and we first met at a conference that we were both speaking at. So I know you’re a busy, busy man, Mark. Thanks so much for being with me today on the Green Apple Podcast.

Mark: My pleasure, John. Thanks for inviting me back.

John: I’m so excited to have you on for the long one. You were on the short episode that we did during a QuickBooks Connect and when we first met there in San Jose. It was so fun. I was so floored because you were broke out your phone and you were like, “This is what I listened to on the flight over from the UK.” My podcast, the Green Apple Podcast was right there. That was really an honor. I was like, “Wow, that’s pretty cool. That’s really cool.” Thanks so much.

Mark: Thank you.

John: Yeah, absolutely. I gave everybody a little bit of your introduction. But maybe in your own words, what you’re up to now and maybe a little bit of your back story.

Mark: Okay. Well, I qualified as a chartered accountant, what Americans would call CPA I guess. Quite a while ago, when I was in practice, I became a tax adviser for many years, partner in a couple of large firms a couple of times. Then made redundant a couple times too. In 2006, I thought, actually, I didn’t enjoy giving tax advice. A terrible thing to admit, but it was — I decided in 2006 to focus on doing those things that I really enjoyed which was speaking, writing and mentoring. If I could find a way to get some magic in there as well, I’d do that too. Since 2006 and I have called myself a speaker, writer, mentor and a debunker. I debunk a lot of the hype and myths and misconceptions around social media, marketing for accountants and anything else that impacts accountants that people hype up, tried to get him to spend a fortune on when typically the answer is quite straightforward and simple.

John: Right, absolutely. I know that we’ve had some fun with some social interaction with Paul Meissner, another former guest on the Green Apple Podcast. He’s a massive debunker as well. It’s always good times bringing in the UK, the US and Australia. We’re connecting the world here. So it’s really, really fun. But one thing that I love to ask everyone when they’re on the show is just what made you want to get into accounting to begin with?

Mark: Well, I was impressed by an accountant I went to see as a teenager. My parents sent me to see them because I had announced one day that I wanted to become a magician. The reason for that was just at the age of 14, I started entertaining at children’s parties. A couple of years later, I decided maybe I could make a living from this. My parents wisely thought that might not be a great idea, sent me to an accountant. I still remember his name, Arnie, the account.

John: Nice.

Mark: He asked me a number of quite salient questions. He said, “How much do you charge for entertaining at a party?” And I keep still because I have no idea what exchange rate is these days or what it was back then. I said, “Oh, I charge about 20 pounds.” He said, “Oh, I had 20 pounds per party. What would you like to earn in a year?” This was mid-1970s. I was probably quite ambitious and I went, “Oh, about 20,000 pounds.” That’s very ambitious. He said, “So, 20 pounds a party and you want to earn 20,000 pounds. You’re going to have to do about 1,000 parties or shows a year. Is that questionable?” He saw the look on my face drop. He said, “Before you try and work it out,” he said, “You’re actually going to have to do more than 1,000 shows because you’ll also going to have additional costs.” He introduced me to the idea of overheads and marketing. I have to buy more outfits and new magic wands and whatever.

Then he introduced me to a three-letter word which at 16, I’d barely come across. It was to have a major impact to the rest of my life. A three-letter word ending in X. You can guess what it is. It was tax. I had never come across tax at 16. I have realized, how or what on earth was I going to have to do? It seemed impossible that I could make the living that I wanted as a magician given that I would have to pay tax and have all the overheads. I need to do 2,000 or 3,000 shows a year and need to put my fees up. It just seemed impossible. So I went home quite dejected. The next time my parents asked me what I wanted to do, I thought back to how impressed I was by Arnie the accountant. I said, “I don’t know, maybe I become an accountant.”

John: Good. Look at that. That’s awesome. That’s so awesome, man. That’s impressive, because you would have to clone yourself. You’d be doing three plus shows a day. That would be insane.

Mark: I think I was impressed by his mathematical skills and how quickly he could multiply, he could divide 20 into 20,000.

John: Right. That’s hilarious. Without a calculator, how did he do that?

Mark: Oh, he didn’t have that kind of idea back then John. Don’t get me on that.

John: Right. That’s awesome. What a great story.

Mark: I’m tempted to say without an abacus but that really would be, make it sound much older than it really was.

John: Right. Absolutely. Have you ever reached back out to Arnie to reconnect?

Mark: No. Well, he was a friend of my parents and we stayed in touch for many, many.

John: Oh, okay. Great.

Mark: Sadly, he has passed on now, but he was a lovely guy. I made sure he knew that he was the inspiration for what became a fantastic career within the profession. I didn’t know where it was going to take me. I recognized that it would open the doors to something in business. In the event, the only exams like past for us time with the tax ones. I thought well, and I also realized that people were willing to pay for tax advice at the time that I qualified in the UK. Every company had to have an audit no matter how big or small they were.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Mark: But clients didn’t like paying for the audits.

John: Sure.

Mark: As I look back, I think when it was a choice between audits or tax, now clearly that’s quite naïve. There were more options available. But I chose tax. The first talk I ever gave was for recruitment consultancy. You had me there as a newly qualified, new into tax. An experienced tax manager from a bigger firm and a tax partner from even a larger firm. The idea was that anybody who was thinking about moving into tax would hear each of our stories. And I remember, I stood up in a completely raw public speaker. I’ve been entertaining, doing magic for you. We were all public speakers. In order to capture their attention, my opening line was, “I hate auditing,” which clearly appeals to a number of people in the room.

John: Right. I mean, yeah, absolutely. That’s fantastic. I think that most of us look at it. I remember when I was coming out in the late ’90s, it was auditor tax. Even though, there were all the advisory services available — yeah, it was pretty much auditor tax. That’s all you ever preached. That’s all they ever teach you in school.

Mark: It’s going to be very different going forward. So I’m sure we’ll come onto that.

John: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. But I know magic is such a big part of your life and it has been — it sounds like forever.

Mark: It has been.

John: That’s the more fascinating story is like how did you get into magic? What made you want to get into that?

Mark: I used to jokingly suggest my parents gave me magic sets every year as birthday presents because they wanted to find ways to make me disappear.

John: Right. And then you wanted to do it for a living. They were like, “Uh-oh, this backfired.”

Mark: It is true, I did have magic sets frequently as presents. When I joined secondary school, I went home very dejected because I realized that I couldn’t interest any of the — I was of no interest to any of the girls. They seem to be interested in the guys who played football were really good looking or could tell jokes.

John: Right.

Mark: I couldn’t play football, I couldn’t tell jokes, and I really wasn’t attractive. I think I have improved a bit over the years.

John: Right. I was going to say, yeah.

Mark: But I needed a hook. My mother said, “Well, why don’t you try magic tricks?”

John: Sure, yeah.

Mark: And that magic tricks did work. It got me attention. Every now and again, it’s many, many years later. Every now and again, I’ll bump into somebody who remembers me from school and they remember me doing magic tricks at school. I don’t have much of a memory of doing magic tricks at school.

John: That’s awesome.

Mark: Definitely not until the sixth floor, but I was entertaining at children’s parties as I say from the age of 14, so after three or four years of secondary school, high school. I think it’s called Insights isn’t it?

John: Yeah. That’s awesome, man. That’s really great. People remember you for that. It’s for being the kid that got stuck in his locker or something like that.

Mark: You know what, John, I say this to many accountants. Now, I’m trying to find — find something of yourself to share with colleagues, with journalists, with clients, something that helps you stand out from the rest of the crowd as being a bit different. Don’t try and manufacture it. But if you have a particular interest or a hobby, reveal it and share it because other people — A, you’ll find other people who may share it with you and B, it will help them to remember you compared to all of the other accountants. That’s proven invaluable to me over the years, because in the same way that old school chums might remember me because of the magic. Over the years, ex-colleagues have remember me, journalists have remembered me. I was at an accounting conference three weeks ago. The deputy managing partner of a large international group of accountants that I used to be a partner in and I left 20 years ago remembers me at partner’s meetings or dinners or whatever doing magic tricks over dinner.

John: Look at that. That’s fantastic.

Mark: Are you still doing the magic, Mark? It was the second thing he said to me. I won’t tell you the first one.

John: Right. Who let you in? But by the way, are you doing the magic? That’s awesome, man. That’s so powerful and so invigorating to hear. That’s where it’s at. It goes back to you high-school days and secondary school days. That’s really fantastic. Is it something that you openly shared when you started in accounting or was it that you were scared to it first?

Mark: Very insightful questions. I kept it quiet for many years. I didn’t talk to clients about it. There was a magazine or a newspaper in the UK. It’s now in the online accountancy age. On the back cover, they used to run, fund stores — poking fun accountants. And they often ran features about accountants who were a bit different and had unusual hobbies. I featured on the back cover a number of times as a magician. We exploited that when I became a partner at BDO. We took some promo shots of me holding BDO promo materials but doing some magic with them. I conjure up a way to make it look magical. I remember the marketing partner was astonished at how we managed to get this shot. And I swore everybody in the photo shoot to secrecy. So he never found out how we had these things floating in the photos.

John: Nice, nice.

Mark: So I had been on the back cover of accountancy age a number of times. And I remember walking into a client meeting, big, big client — one of the largest non-listed companies I think in the UK, and I was doing the tax for them. I remember walking into their office one day and the finance director had a notice board behind his desk on which was pinned a copy of the back cover of accountancy age with my picture doing magic, a big rigged circle around it and an arrow pointing at it. Should we take tax advice from this magic guy?

John: No way, seriously.

Mark: Yeah. It was a complete — they rated me, they regarded me highly.

John: Right, okay. So they were just completely joking your chain. All right, got it.

Mark: They were completely joking my chain. But I’ll tell you, my heart nearly stopped as I moved on top of that though. Oh, my god. For that split second, I felt completely vindicated that I haven’t shared with clients that I did magic. I was always concerned that in my adversity impact my professional credibility. What I’ve learned since I — journalists knew about it but clients didn’t unless they’d seen accountancy age colleagues who always knew about it. But what I found over the last 12 years or so since I left the profession in that way, all of my clients are accountants. Don’t get me wrong. I now mentor sole practitioner accountants, those running their own practices. I speak at events for accountants, and there is often magic in the talks and presentations. But until I seized being a partner in a large firm, I didn’t talk about magic with client, and I look back, I think that was such a mistake because I could have built stronger relationships with people if I had revealed that special interest.

John: Right, yeah. You go in, you see the picture with the big circles, should we take the advice from this guy? And then when they’re like oh, we’re just kidding, they all were like — this is the coolest thing ever. This is so cool. Why didn’t you tell us earlier? What the heck? Do a trick now.

Mark: Now, the funny thing — I think back to that particular occasion and I don’t think that happened. I think because there was some specific circumstances of that kind in that meeting. But I think that’s — that is what one might have expected to happen anywhere else and probably would have happened anywhere else. That stopped me and there was one other experience I’d had years earlier that stopped me. I have gone for an interview. When you go for an interview and they often look at your other interests and they talk about — one of the first ingredients, you talk about your other interests to put you are your ease. I remember this, the managing partner of a very large firm of accountants looked at my CV in the days before the internet.

They read it, your other interest is magic. He said, “I see that you’re a member of the Magic Circle,” Yes. “I think that probably says a lot about you.” I didn’t get the job. For years, I assumed that meant that he thought I was too good at being deceptive and he didn’t want somebody like that in in the firm. Now, I never got the opportunity to find out if my understanding was right or not. But I think that that put me off sharing it in that type of situation and with clients. Well, perspective clients. I wish I’d shared it more with clients when I was in practice. I don’t think it would have done me any harm at all.

John: Right. Do you think that had you gotten the job at that firm, had you not shared that you were in the Magic Circle? Do you think that that would have been an okay place to work and stay?

Mark: That’s something I’ve never given any thought to.

John: All right.

Mark: When I was in practice, I subscribed to the view, you can progress as far as you can in one firm and then move on. In some respects, I was maybe ahead of my time because from my generation, when you qualified as an accountant, you typically either stayed with that firm for a long time where you certainly stayed as an accountant and you didn’t move around a great deal. These days, certainly in the UK, it’s almost obligatory to change roles when you qualify.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Mark: If you want to get on all within a year to qualify, not everybody does, but the vast majority do. People in small firms want to move to bigger firms. People in bigger firms want to move to Big 4 firms. People in Big 4 firms want to move to smaller firms and so on. It’s much more common now to have two, three, four, five, ten jobs over the course of one’s career. In some respect, I’m on my fifth career. So that’s why I stand ahead of my time because I think that my kids, my son qualified as an accountant a little while ago. He may well have five careers over the course of his working life. He qualified in accounting tax. He moved into modeling.

John: There you go.

Mark: I should clarify financial —

John: Oh, okay. All right. I was going to say, okay.

Mark: Yeah, but that is pretty much how he explains it as well. But he’s only 30.

John: Right. Wow, yeah.

Mark: He’s got another 40, 50 years of working potentially ahead of him. Why would he only do that for the rest of his life?

John: Right. No, absolutely. I mean I would think that — that’s so funny because when you said that that partner said — that says a lot about you. It’s like yeah, then I’m a real person.

Mark: Exactly.

John: He doesn’t live and breathe accounting. So I think that that’s probably what they were looking for, were drones. You’re not that. I think it would’ve been a terrible fit. He kind of did you a favor by not doing you a favor because yeah, then you’re stuck there in a terrible situation.

Mark: I think you’re right, John. The fact is, with the exception of one bleb where I went to take your role where I was going to be head of tax at the age of 29 for a firm that never had a tax partner before. Two days later, I went home to my wife and said, I’ve made a dreadful mistake. Do you think to Touche Ross —

John: Right.

Mark: The old name for Deloitte — do you think they’d have me back? Then she said, “No, you got to stick it out.” She was right. I learnt a lot from that experience. But other than that mistake if you like, I have benefited and I only look back at every career move I’ve made and think, “Wow, I have made the right choice at the time.” That took me as far as I could and I’m pleased I moved on when I did. Generally, I moved on when I chose to a couple of times.

John: Sure.

Mark: That happens.

John: Yeah. Let’s go back to — I think it’s curious how you would share the magic with colleagues but never with clients. I guess why was that or, and did you ever see a difference in the relationships between your colleagues and the clients because of that?

Mark: I think as a said, I think I was concerned it was going to — I use the expression adversely impact my professional credibility.

John: Sure.

Mark: Which I look back now and I’m convinced that I was wrong to think that. That was my thinking, whereas with colleagues, yeah, I wasn’t the joker in the office every day of the week or anything like that. I wasn’t the guy who picks them up and do a magic trick every minute. But when we went to the pub or to a bar after work or for birthdays or whatever, I was always prepared to do some magic.

John: Sure.

Mark: That was fine. It wasn’t encroaching into my work day. I suppose I think that was the difference.

John: I got it.

Mark: And you shouldn’t be entertaining clients with magic when you’re entertaining clients or having a business meeting, certainly when you’re having a business meeting.

John: Right, because is this on our charge code? Are we paying for the students? Well, 20 pounds and —

Mark: It was one great occasion. I was a partner at a firm.

John: Okay, sure. Yeah.

Mark: The senior partner there was having lunch with a journalist who — I remember the partner afterwards said to me, I couldn’t understand why I was having lunch with this 12-year-old. It a very young inexperienced journalist at one of the accountancy papers. And the senior partner saw me walking past the office. We had glass windows to the luncheon rooms or whatever. He beckoned me in. He told me later, it was just to overcome the tedium with this young guy. And he said, at our firm, we have all sorts of accountancy. Mark is one of our partners. Mark is a member of the Magic Circle. Mark or Steve or whatever the guy’s name. Can you show Steve a magic trick? Which I then proceeded to do, blew the guy’s socks off.

The senior partner hadn’t seen the trick before either and was quite impressed. I was greatly relieved. I haven’t seen your partner. Thank me for that, not just that stay but almost every time I saw him for the next five years because it had got him out of a hole and enabled him to finish the lunch/interview on a high when you’ve been getting so bored with the poor guy and the poor guy was — this was a 20 something guy interviewing an old man in his ’60s but have nothing in common about the space we’re talking about at the firm. It led to some nice PR for the firm as well. So I was pleased about that.

John: Yeah. But I mean, that’s so great. Imagine if you hadn’t shared at all that you do magic, then you would just be another accountant.

Mark: Yeah. And I wouldn’t have achieved what I did in my career. It was partly the fact that people knew about it. It was also partly the skills that I had developed being comfortable standing up and presenting to people that led to my first volunteering role. I was at the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, ICAEW. It’s the biggest professional body for accountancy in the UK. I got involved in some committee work. And then because I could stand up and talk to people, I’m sure that it was as much that as anything — and of course, I’m a nice guy and honest and all.

John: Right.

Mark: But I ended up becoming chairman of the tax faculty for the ICAEW representing the Institute with government, with our revenue services, HMOC, IRS and pairing before select committees and doing all sorts of things because I had developed the confidence to present to people which grew out of entertaining at children’s parties and then entertaining grownups at parties and functions and events as well.

John: Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s so huge.

Mark: That then led me to other voluntary roles within the Institute as well. I took on a voluntary role completely unrelated to all that with quite a large charity around deputy treasurer. That’s a charity for community.

John: Sure.

Mark: I have got my volunteer roles at the institute which is for my profession. And then on the magic side of things, three or four years ago, I agreed to become treasurer of the Magic Circle.

John: Then, it’s great.

Mark: And the magic circle, we like to call it the world’s most prestigious magic society. So I have a volunteer role there as well.

John: That’s great, man. That’s so cool. It all came about from sharing your magic and doing that. Don’t beat yourself up too much. Imagine if you had shared the relationships that you had with those colleagues. With that senior partner, those relationships could have existed with clients but you clearly did really well for yourself and we’re really great at what you did. It’s just fascinating how professionalism I believe is what makes us not want to fully share like that like it’s going to eat into the work day.

Mark: I think you’re absolutely right, John. Especially the other factor to recognize is, if I had been different with clients than I was, then I might not have been made redundant the second time, and then I wouldn’t be in the situation where I am now where I can just focus on doing the stuff I really enjoy speaking, writing, mentoring.

John: Exactly.

Mark: Without magic. I might still be a partner in a large firm of accountants. I have no doubt that if I was doing that, I would find a way to be happy doing it. I feel as I’ve got older, the pressure and the politics in those large firms, I was never best suited to it.

John: Sure.

Mark: I’m lucky that my career has led me to where I am. And I choose to look at it that way, even though in a different world, things might have been very different. I never regret choices you’ve made. You go where life leads you and make the best of it.

John: Exactly. Now, you’re on the Green Apple Podcast. So look, it’s not all terrible.

Mark: I know. I’m delighted. I think this — this is the third podcast I have been recorded on.

John: Oh, fantastic.

Mark: They’re all different. This is for accountants. I have done one for speakers and I have done one for the media.

John: Nice. I guess, do you have any — before we bring this home, do you have any words of encouragement for anyone that’s listening that maybe do magic and they’re like hey, no business class ever said, “Go, learn magic because it’ll make you better at your job.” Should I share this or not or anything like that?

Mark: I think it’s very important to show who you really are. And thank goodness, in the in the modern world, there’s less prejudice against sharing who you really are. If you show who you really are, what interests you, what passions you have, you will find other people who share those or who know people who share those. It helps you build stronger relationships. An accountancy is really very much about relationships and going forward. Even more so, my latest talk is on Robo-Accountants. Will they retire you, replace you or rely on you? What’s the future for accountancy?

One of the key things there is that the robots are taking over and within five to ten years, there will be very little recurring compliance work for accountants in practice to do which means that the relationships we have with our clients will be predicated on our ability to give them advice as regards to the future rather than reviewing the past. If you’re going to be doing that and earn good money from that going forwards, you’re going to have to have a closer relationship with clients than you needed to have to report on the past for tax returns or to file accounts and the like. Building relationships with clients is even more important going forwards than it has ever been.

John: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. That was awesome. Before I get on the plane and fly to the UK and — I guess we do some magic together. I don’t know. I guess I would just more do the comedy part of it and mess all the tricks up and then you come in and fix it and do it right. But I have my 17 rapid fire questions that I’d like to run you through just to make sure.

Mark: Yeah, sure.

John: Because if we’re going to go on tour, it’s a lot of hanging out together. So I got to make sure that we can do this.

Mark: Go for it, John. Let’s see where we go.

John: All right. Let me fire this thing up here. Let me fire it up. Okay. Here we go. I’ll start you out easy. Are you more of, when it comes to computers, more of a PC or a Mac?

Mark: Mac.

John: Mac?

Mark: Easy.

John: Look at you. How about do you have a favorite ice cream flavor?

Mark: Yeah, it’s strawberry.

John: Strawberry, okay, all right. How about a favorite color?

Mark: Blue.

John: Blue, nice. How about a least favorite color?

Mark: Brown. My wife tried to get me to wear brown clothes.

John: Oh, boy. Are you more pens or pencils?

Mark: Pens.

John: Pens, okay. How about when it comes to puzzles? More Sudoku or crossword puzzles?

Mark: More Sudoku. I’d prefer KenKen.

John: Oh, okay. All right, nice. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Mark: Stark Trek. Of course, it’s Star Trek.

John: Okay. All right. You’re a tax guy, I can tell. Do you prefer oceans or mountains?

Mark: Oceans.

John: Oceans, okay. How about do you have a favorite actor or actress?

Mark: Angelina Jolie.

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s a good one. That’s a good one. How about a favorite magician?

Mark: That would be Paul Daniels.

John: Very cool, very cool. How about more suit and tie or jeans and a t-shirt?

Mark: Jeans and t-shirt.

John: All right. Now, when it comes to financials, your accounting side, more balance sheet or income statement?

Mark: Income statements.

John: Okay, all right. It’s just kind of a silly one. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Mark: That would be South Africa, Cape Town in South Africa.

John: Yes, that’s my top. Cape Town is awesome. How about, do you have a favorite number?

Mark: Number seven.

John: Yeah, and why is that?

Mark: Because it’s a popular number when you ask people to choose a number.

John: Oh, I got it. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Mark: Early bird.

John: Early bird, all right. Two more. Do you have a favorite band or musician?

Mark: Queen, a rock band Queen.

John: Yeah, that’s huge. The last one, the favorite thing you own or the favorite thing you have?

Mark: I’m going to go for something like Hey Mic. H-E-Y-M-I-C, which is a Bluetooth microphone that picks up the sound properly when I’m videoing in my iPhone because it is just awesome.

John: Right. No, absolutely. Well, this was so fun, Mark. Thank you so much for taking time to be with me on the Green Apple Podcast, really fantastic.

Mark: My pleasure, John. Thank you so much and I look forward to listening to more of your podcasts.

John: There you go. I loved how Mark said, “Building relationships with clients is more important than it’s ever been,” and I couldn’t agree more. The more that you share your And, that hobby, passion, interest outside of work, the more you share that, the stronger that relationship is going to be because anyone else can create that relationship based on their technical skills that you also have but it’s those passions and interests outside of work that will take it to the next level. If you’d like to see some pictures of Mark doing his magic and also connect with them on social media, please go to greenapplepodcast.com. All the links are there. While you’re on the page, please click that big green button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, which is to go out and be a green apple.