Welcome to Episode 353 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett, and each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. To put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “And”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

I’m so excited to let everyone know that my book is published. You can check it out at whatsyourand.com. All the details are there. The links to Amazon, Indigo, Book Depository, barnesandnoble.com, a few other websites, everything’s there. I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s getting the book reading it and then leaving such nice reviews on Amazon and sharing how their cultures have changed because of it.

Please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Kevin Dawson. He’s the VP of Agency Development in the West Texas Office of Colonial Life and the host of Leaders and Lagers podcast, and now he’s with me here today. Kevin, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And?”

Kevin: John, I appreciate you inviting me to come on the show. I’m super pumped about this and looking forward to some great conversations today.

John: Ditto, man. I’m excited. I appreciate it. So, yeah, 17 rapid-fire questions right out of the gate here. Get to know Kevin on a new level. This will be fun. Here’s an easy one, favorite color.

Kevin: Blue.

John: Blue. Okay, mine too. All right, how about a least favorite color?

Kevin: Pink.

John: Pink. Yeah, there you go. All right, all right. Are you more chocolate or vanilla?

Kevin: Vanilla.

John: Vanilla. All right. Yeah. How about, more hot or cold?

Kevin: Hot.

John: Hot. Yeah, West Texas, that’s way hot. That’s stupid hot. How about favorite actor or actress?

Kevin: Favorite actor is Chris Evans.

John: Oh, yeah. There you go. All right. Yeah, you don’t hear that one very often. That’s great. Yeah, that’s a very good pick. How about, would you say you’re more of an early bird or a night owl?

Kevin: Both.

John: Both. Wow. Okay, do you nap in the middle or?

Kevin: Yeah, I find time to sleep during the middle of the day. Early riser, stay up late, but, yeah, I like to siesta.

John: Oh, wow. Okay, good for you, man. That’s impressive. More Star Wars or Star Trek?

Kevin: Star Wars.

John: Okay. Yeah, me too. Me too. Your computer, more of a PC or a Mac.

Kevin: Mac all the way.

John: Mac. Oh, wow. All right, way cooler than me, way cooler. How about a favorite ice cream flavor? Because I’m such a junkie.

Kevin: Oh, strawberry cheesecake.

John: Strawberry — oh, okay. So it has like the graham crust in there too.

Kevin: Yeah, you’ve got the cheesecake bites in it and strawberry swirled in. It’s phenomenal.

John: That sounds really good. How about, suit and tie or jeans and a T-shirt?

Kevin: Mixture. Jeans and then jacket top.

John: Oh, okay, all right. Yeah, in Denver, I think they call it the Colorado tuxedo or something like that.

Kevin: Yes.

John: Fancy. It’s perfect for Zoom, right? It’s just top half, boom.

Kevin: Yep.

John: How about oceans or mountains?

Kevin: Mountains.

John: Mountains. All right, all right. What’s a typical breakfast?

Kevin: Pop-Tart.

John: Pop-Tarts. Strawberry?

Kevin: Cherry.

John: Oh, okay, all right.

Kevin: A Pop-Tart with a cup of coffee.

John: There you go. Well, there’s fruit. It’s fruit, right?

Kevin: Yeah.

John: It’s healthy. All right, there you go. How about a favorite number?

Kevin: One.

John: One. Is there a reason?

Kevin: Yes, and I’ll get into that here in a little bit, but there is a reason why one is my favorite.

John: Okay, all right. We’ll get into that. How about, since my book is out, are you more Kindle or real books?

Kevin: Real books.

John: Real books. Yeah, me too, me too. How about a favorite place you’ve been on vacation?

Kevin: So far, New Orleans.

John: New Orleans. Oh, yeah, that’s a great answer. Yeah, it’s fun city, absolutely. The last one is the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own.

Kevin: Favorite thing I own is a challenge coin gifted to me by Major Scott Petz of the US Air Force Air Demonstration Squadron, Thunderbirds, when I had a chance to work with him in 2015. This is probably the most treasured piece I have of anything in the house. If anything burns down, as long as I have it.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s fantastic, man. That’s very cool. A challenge coin, they’re big, right?

Kevin: Well, most have half-dollar size, but this is — so typical size is like the size of this little eight.

John: It’s like a coaster.

Kevin: Almost, yeah. So, don’t lose this one. It’s a paperweight almost.

John: Right, right. The Thunderbirds, that’s very, very cool. That’s awesome, which dovetails perfectly into plane spotting. Which, what is plane spotting?

Kevin: Plane spotting, it’s almost like bird watching except you’re watching big metal birds, airplanes. I’m an av geek or aviation geek. Growing up, airplanes, aviation has always been a part of my life. My parents said, when I was little, we’d be driving down the highway, and I’m sitting in a car seat. I could spot a plane way up in the air. I’d start pointing and talking about it. They’re like, what are you talking about? Where are you looking at? Yeah, so plane spotting really is just plane watching.

I’ll still run outside — because I live real close to one of the smaller airports here in West Texas. I can hear a plane outside, and I can tell you exactly what the engine manufacturer is or what it may be. I’ll also hear something flyover, and I’ll run outside, if it is something that’s, that doesn’t sound like something normal, I’m going to check it out. Even to this day, I could be 99 years old, and I could hear an airplane fly over, and I’m still going to look up.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s very cool. It’s something, clearly you’ve been doing since you were a kid, as well, because you were pointing out — you’ve always just been fascinated with that. That’s awesome.

Kevin: It’s what I thought I was going to be doing. What I wanted to be doing was flying. I actually do you have a degree in Aerospace Science and a commercial pilot’s license, but life happened. That didn’t just end up being the career path for me, but I’ve stayed close to the aviation industry for a number of years. Even to this day, I should be — on a typical weekend, in a non-COVID year, I’m going to an airshow to go watch airplanes, or I’m going to go — like, if I go to Dallas, I was recently in Dallas, and if I’m by myself, there in the northwest corner of the DFW International Airport, there’s a viewing park for people to come watch airplanes take off and land. I’ll sit there for two hours and just watch.

John: That’s incredible. I didn’t realize that. Yeah. Do a lot of airports have something like that?

Kevin: They’re starting to have more and more because there is a lot of people who just want to sit and watch, take pictures, especially around bigger airports, if there’s land available. I know there’s at Van Nuys Airport in Van Nuys, California, which is one of the busiest general aviation airports in the world, they have a viewing park on the other side that has a little playground attached to it.

John: That’s awesome. I grew up — my dad was in the Air Force, so we were always around bases. It’s mostly military planes, obviously, but the cargo planes as well. It wasn’t just the cool fighter jets. Yeah, I grew up knowing all the military aircraft and seeing the Thunderbirds every year and the Blue Angels and the, I forget what the Canadian group is called.

Kevin: Snowbirds.

John: Snowbirds, that’s exactly what they are. Yeah, yeah. It was just cool to see, just all those groups and all those planes, and being able to go into a lot of them and all that. That’s neat. As far as the commercial aircraft, I don’t know any of the difference. I just get on them and then sit down and then put on my headphones.

Kevin: Yeah, for me, it’s like, I’m that weird guy who wants to get to the airport, an hour earlier, not so I can beat security lane. I run around like a kid in a candy store, wanting to watch airplanes, especially in the bigger airport. My airport here in Midland is five gates, and we have three airlines, Southwest, American, United. I get bored, but flying to Dallas or going to Chicago — I flew to Chicago for the first time a couple of years ago, and leaving Chicago, I knew that I wasn’t leaving till like 3:00 in the afternoon. I got to the airport 11:00, and I walked all the terminals, up and down. I think I walked five miles. I looked at my step counter. I walked five miles, up and down the airport, watching airplanes and just taking pictures out the windows. I’m surprised that security, like, what is this weirdo doing over here?

John: He’s picturing all these airplanes and everything. Yeah, but that’s cool, man. That’s fantastic. It’s also cool that it grew into the private pilot’s license and stuff like that. So, you’re way into it, which is cool. That’s awesome.

Kevin: It’s been a huge part of my life, and people know me as that kid who wants to fly. There’s a really great quote, and people attribute to Leonardo da Vinci, but I don’t know if he — but it’s still a great quote. It says, “For once you have tasted flight, there your eyes will look, and you’ll always long to be there.”

It’s like, for me, getting on an airplane, I’m always in the window seat because I’m just constantly looking. At an airport, I’m watching everything. I’m going to air shows. Or when the Red Bull air races were a thing, I went to a couple of those and watched those, and have worked air shows for 15 years. So, just being in and around, that’s still something that is just near and dear to my heart. My whole house is decorated — there are airplanes in every single room in the house. That’s just going to be part of who I am, regardless of what I do.

John: Right, right. Yeah, which is such a great way to look at it is it’s a part of who you are. Asking you to not bring that to work or life or social, whatever it is, it’s like, that’s always there. How much you talk about it, fluctuates, but that’s such a great point, man. It’s such a great point. So, going back to the number one, does that have something to do with the plane spotting or?

Kevin: The number one comes from — so, growing up, I think it was 1993, my grandfather took me to an air show in Arizona. We were there at Davis Monthan Air Force Base, and this was the first time I ever saw the Thunderbirds. We were there, and it was that moment like, that’s what I want to do. I want to be that.

So, for me, the ultimate dream job was to be the commander and leader of the Air Force Thunderbirds who flies the number 1 jet. So, I want to be the boss. I want to be in that role of that lead jet because there’s prestige when you are the commander. Whether it’s the commander of Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, Snowbirds, whoever, people want to be number one, say, hey, I’m number one. That’s why I want to be number one.

When life didn’t turn out the way I thought, man, I’m never going to get the opportunity to do this. Well, it’s so happened in 2015, I was volunteer for the air show here in West Texas. I had been volunteer for a number of years. The last time the Thunderbirds were here was in 2005. So they came in 2015. I was on the public safety team, and the head of our public safety team said, “Hey, I want you to be the Thunderbird liaison for public safety.” I’m like, cool, yeah, I’d love to.

John: What?

Kevin: So, my job that week was to work with the team to make sure that they had everything they needed to secure the jets and make sure everything went well, in terms of how the crowd interacted, things along those lines. I remember it was a Thursday, right after lunch, and Major Petz and Thunderbird 8 and his crew chief, they land the day before. No, this is Wednesday because the team arrives on Thursday for a weekend. So, he arrives Wednesday. Thursday, the team arrives. I can’t believe I’m getting to be this close to the jets. Typically when you go to an air show, you’re maybe 150 yards away to being at the closest point. I walked up, and I could put my hand on it, on a Thunderbird.

John: Yeah, a Thunderbird is amazing, yeah.

Kevin: So, I worked with Thunderbird 8, who is the advanced pilot. His job is to be the first one in to make sure everything’s set up for the team’s arrival. He’s also the last one to leave. So, he arrives. The team arrives Thursday. Friday, they do their their rehearsal show. Saturday, Sunday is the air show. Sunday ends. They all pack up, and they leave. Before they left, that’s how I got that challenge coin, was Major Petz, call sign Cheetah, he’s like, hey, thanks for working with me this weekend. I’m sitting here on cloud nine. If they just would have let me sit in a jet and taken my picture, I could have died right there.

I remember one morning, I got too early, and Scott gets there. He’s like, hey, you want me to go take your picture? I was like, “What do you mean, like in the jet?” He said, “Not in jet, but we’ll take your picture in front of the number 1 jet.” So I got my picture in front of the number 1 jet. It was the most amazing experience in my life, was to say, hey, I got to be a part of the team for a week. Even if it wasn’t to fly, but it was just — I was part of the team, and they treated me as part of the team. I loved it. To this day, it’s one of my, I’m not going to say my greatest accomplishment, but my greatest memory.

John: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. It comes full circle from when you were a kid and the first time you saw them and then your grandparents and stuff like that. That’s awesome. Do you feel like any of the aero background, whether it’s flying a plane, or being a fan of planes, or just knowing engines and planes and all that, do you feel like any of that transfers over to your work in human resources, and now in agent development and things like that?

Kevin: A lot of the things that I’ve learned along the way, airplanes are very different, come in different shape and size, they have different requirements and different needs. It’s like you’re working with a team. People are different. People have different needs. They come and go all the time. So, as a leader in business, I feel like I have to be like an air traffic controller sometimes. I’m directing people. I’m watching people and seeing, like, oh, someone’s just now coming into land, I need to make sure that their experience is great. Or this person’s getting ready to leave, I want to make sure that they have a great departure. So, there is a little bit correlation.

Even in the flight school training that I went through, we did a lot of crew resource management training, how to work together. You’re in a little metal tube, flying 500 miles an hour, 30,000 feet above the ground. You have to be able to work together and not have conflict and not do those things. It’s like, hey, you need to learn how to work together because if something goes bad, it can be really bad.

John: Really bad. Yeah, for sure. Those are such great parallels that I never thought of like that before, but you’re exactly right. That’s awesome. Did you ever share with people how into planes you are? I guess if they travel with you, they know.

Kevin: Oh, they know. If you walked into some of my offices, because I’m still waiting to get my new office all set up because, literally, we just opened up this agency. We have one office, and there’s four of us in there. We’re still trying to build things out. In my old office, I had blueprints for the TWA Terminal 5 at JFK.

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Kevin: I have it blown up on my wall. I’m waiting to put those back up. I had model airplanes sitting on my shelf. So, people automatically knew. You walked in, oh, this is — you must like airplanes. I’m like, yeah.

John: You must be in the FBI. What gave that away?

Kevin: So, people, they knew right away. If not, I’d start talking about it. I can’t be in a conversation with someone for more than an hour before I got to start talking about airplanes.

John: Well, luckily, this whole show is about airplanes.

Kevin: Yeah.

John: You don’t have to hold back. That’s cool, man. Those little things in your office, it’s not necessarily you blurting it out. It’s just people come in, they see it, oh, you want to have a conversation around it? Cool, ask me some questions, type of thing. You’re inviting those questions from people.

Kevin: Yeah, because it’s a great way to have an icebreaker. Working in sales, I walk into somebody’s office, and I look around and see what’s in their room. It’s a great way to just have a straight conversation about someone. People love to talk about themselves, so why not ask the questions, like, oh, I see that you have these over here, you must like this or that. If you don’t have some sort of personal element in your office, how are you going to get people to talk to you and get you to open up? Because if we’re just there to talk business, that can be really boring.

As much as people love the opportunity to talk about themselves, why not? It lessens the tension in the room. Especially if you’re in sales and you’re trying to win over a person you’ve just met, you want to find that common ground, whether it’s, hey, we both like airplanes. My brother is into Formula One racing, so his office has Formula One stuff in there. Or most people, they have a favorite sports team or something. They may have that, so let’s talk about this. Obviously, if you’re in Texas and you happen to have UT or A&M on the wall, be careful how you say things with certain people.

John: Right. Or if you went to OU, you just shut your mouth.

Kevin: Learn some of those same about people, and it makes for great conversation-starter, to find common ground, to find a way just to connect with someone and make them feel at ease because they’re just as nervous and have tension with you in the room. So, it’s a great way just to give you a little bit of who you are.

John: Yeah, I love that. I love those connection and that deeper, below surface level kind of conversations. For some reason, it’s easier for us to talk about that stuff. Just, we’ve got stories on stories on stories, but we hide behind the work conversation, which is more awkward for everybody. Really, it’s so weird to me how that is.

Kevin: Yeah. I think when when people just want to hide behind work and not make connections, it’s like, why? Your network is your net worth. Why not build it?

John: Wow. Yeah, that’s a great phrase. That’s exactly it. It even applies if you’re not in sales because you’re still creating these human-to-human connections, whether it’s with your coworkers, whether it’s with clients or customers. It’s that human-to-human interaction that’s still — and it just flourishes when you get to those hobbies and passions.

Kevin: Absolutely. For me, it was because of aviation, my passion for aviation that actually allowed me to learn how to speak confidently in front of people. I used to be the shy kid that if you asked me to stand up in class and give a presentation, I hated — I think most people probably have some sort of fear of public speaking because it’s nervous.

One of my very first jobs, I worked for a World War Two Aviation History Museum as education coordinator. I had to do presentations to teachers and students, but because it was something that I was passionate about and I loved to talk about, I could talk all day and not feel nervous.

As that confidence began to build, my audience began to grow, and I could talk in front of 100 people, 1,000 people, get up on the stand at an air show to 100,000 people, and say, here’s what we’ve got going on at the museum in the next couple weeks, and here’s why you need to get involved in all these different things. It was not anything nerve-wracking. It allowed me to build my confidence because I got to talk about my passion.

So, my transition into HR and talking about leadership development and culture development and when we had to build teams, those are other passions. It allowed me to build on those and say, oh, you want to have me come speak in an event. How many people are going to be there? 10? Great. 10,000? Not a problem.

John: That’s awesome, man. That’s such a great example of even just, like in the book that I talk about, of just have groups of one person each week or each month or whenever you have the all-staff meeting or the department meeting, get up and talk about your hobby or passion, three to five minutes. Because, like you said, you’re nervous talking in front of people, but talking about airplanes, oh, I can do that all day long in front of how big, I don’t even care how big the audience is. We can do this all day. It’s just an easier way to get people into that routine and realize that, oh, I do have the skill that I can bring to the office.

Kevin: As a leader, if you’re asking people on your team, hey, share one thing that you’re passionate about or one personal goal that you have, you learn a little bit more about that individual and can build deeper relationship with that person.

John: That’s exactly it. You’re accidentally learning more about them in a way that you’ll actually remember, sort of a thing, as opposed to just, well, what their job was. Well, so what? Everyone’s got the same — everyone in that department’s doing the same thing. It’s not a differentiator at all.

How much do you feel like it’s on the organization to create that space and encourage that, and how much is it on the individual to maybe just start in their little circle of cubicle area, the couple people that are close?

Kevin: I think, for organizations to make people feel included, you have to have that ability to say, hey, you’re coming here not just to be this. You’re bringing the whole person to work. You’re not just bringing your business self to work. You’re bringing the whole person, so your whole person may have a whole bunch of different things in there. We want to know you as a whole person, not just what’s your title. Who are you? Successful organizations will do that.

Also, as an individual, you have to take that step to say, I’m going to bring my whole self to work. I’m going to establish myself and want to get to know people, and I want them to get to know me on who I am because I can’t separate the two. People who can separate the two, I feel like they’re psychopaths. What is wrong with you? It’s like, no, I want to see a little bit about who you are, who’s your family?

Some great stories that I feel like — one of my good friends who was on my podcast for Episode 50, when he was the leader of a former business, he had a guy on his team who loved to barbecue. He wanted to become a barbecue pit master, but it was more of a passion project for him. We’ll give you feedback on it. We’ll help you figure this thing out.

Along the way, he found out that there’s going to be a barbecue competition here in West Texas, and he got his senior teams to, hey, we’re going to go enter Jeff into this competition and let him actually see what it’s like to do it. He’s been talking about it for so long, let’s get him there. He does this, and he comes in last place. You just don’t win the first time in a barbecue —

John: Well, Texas, especially like, forget about it.

Kevin: Jeff came back, so pumped to be at work because he knew that his leaders believed in him beyond more than what he just did at work. They believed in him as a whole person.

John: I love that example. That’s so great because it’s, yeah, we care about you, and we’re celebrating this. We think it’s awesome. Go do it. Who cares if you came in last place? It’s still –we weren’t in it, so you’re way ahead of everybody else. So, who cares?

That’s the thing is you enjoy it. It doesn’t matter if you’re flying number 1 of the Thunderbirds, or you’re sitting at an airport, watching airplanes, taking pictures. It doesn’t matter. You enjoy it. You don’t have to be this world-record-breaking level to share or be excited about it. It’s what lights you up. I think that’s cool. To have your organization’s leadership back you like that is a great example. That’s cool.

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. It’s been great along the way because people recognize that passion. Sitting behind me, there’s a lunchbox from Southwest Airlines that they sent me, full of peanuts. I was doing — a couple of summers ago, I flew Southwest eight times in two weeks.

John: Holy cow. Okay.

Kevin: Every time I go out flying, I’m taking pictures, out the window, getting that winglet snapshot to put on social media. We had just landed in Dallas, and I take a picture out the window. You see the winglet, and you see downtown Dallas at the end of the runway.

John: Oh, nice.

Kevin: Yeah, there’s nothing better than than Dallas and Southwest. They saw that and said, hey, can we we share this, and we want to send you something. They sent me a pair of Southwest Airlines dress socks with the Dallas skyline.

John: That’s super cool.

Kevin: I was like, I’m going to be a fan for — I mean, I was already a fan for life with them, but it was just that much more engagement. Or I have a friend who, he’s like, hey, I’ve got all this — he worked for Southwest for a number of years. He had like beer glasses with Southwest etched into them. I’m like, of course I want them. I’m easy to shop for, for birthdays and Christmas. Just find an airplane on it.

John: Anything with airplanes. Yeah, that’s awesome, man. That’s so cool. It’s so cool that you share it and you live it. It’s synonymous with who Kevin Dawson is, is airplanes, type of thing. That’s something that people are going to remember, for sure. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe they love airplanes and their job has nothing to do with it, or they have a hobby that they think no one’s going to care about?

Kevin: I’d say just be you. Come out and let people get to know you. Let them know what your passions are. You may find that someone else shares that same passion. You have a best friend at work. You may find a spouse at work that way. 40% of people meet their spouse through work. Be yourself and don’t be ashamed. Don’t treat it as a guilty pleasure. I have guilty pleasures. My guilty pleasure is ‘90s boy bands. I’m not afraid of that.

John: Okay. For the Follow-Up Friday, we’ll do that one.

Kevin: It’s just you. Don’t be afraid. Let people see it. You may never know what comes out of it.

John: I love that. That’s so great, so perfect for everyone to wrap this up. Before I do, it’s only fair that I turn the tables. You, of course, have your Leaders and Lagers podcast. This will be much less professional than that. We’ll just call it the Kevin Dawson Show, Episode One. Here we go. I’m your first guest. Thanks for having me on.

Kevin: Yeah. So, fast questions. It’s 5:00 somewhere, what’s your go-to drink?

John: Oh, okay. Yeah, I’m a cider guy. Pineapple cider, I’m into now.

Kevin: ACE Cider?

John: Yeah, ACE is really good though. Yeah, we’ll go with that one because I can’t think of something else of the top of my head.

Kevin: Pineapple cider. I really enjoy that one. Pineapple is my favorite fruit. That’s a great…

John: Yeah. It’s like, wow, why didn’t they think of this a long time ago? This is great.

Kevin: Who are you listening to right now?

John: For music-wise?

Kevin: Music, podcast. We’re both in the podcast business. Who do you listen to, podcast-wise?

John: I don’t listen to podcasts. I guess I’m a creator and not a consumer. I don’t know. I’ve listened to some on occasion. If a friend’s on or somebody’s like, oh, you got to listen to this interview, it’s really great; then I’ll listen. As far as subscribing and listening on a regular basis, I’m terrible. I don’t know. Yeah, I’m not — I’m busy making mine, so I don’t know.

Kevin: Fair enough.

John: I don’t want it to bleed in.

Kevin: All right, final question. Since I already put it out there, what’s your guilty pleasure?

John: Oh, guilty pleasure. College football is definitely going to be something that, I guess, I watch way too much of and will decide how things are going to happen on a Saturday, based on when the game starts. That probably means I have a little bit of problem.

Kevin. No such thing. No such thing as a problem there.

John: Yeah, right? I didn’t think so. I mean, ‘90s boy bands, they’re great, too. soulDecision, we can go all the way back. I mean, probably just Peanut M&M’s, ice cream. You’re starting to make me realize that nothing I do is really good for me. This is like an intervention. This is weird.

Kevin: I drink beer on a podcast, weekly. Sometimes more than once a week. I’m checking in on Untappd with a beer at 10:30 in the morning, doing an interview. People are like, do you have a drinking problem? No, no, I don’t.

John: No, I do not. I have no problem at all. I’m very good at it.

Kevin: Yes.

John: That’s awesome. Well, thanks so much, Kevin, for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”? This has been really fun.

Kevin: John, I appreciate it. This has been great. I’m looking forward to future conversations. Thanks for inviting me on show.

John: Absolutely, yeah, and everyone listening, if you want to see some pictures of Kevin or maybe connect with him on social media or check out his Leaders and Lagers podcast, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. While you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture, and check out the book.

Thanks again for subscribing on iTunes or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.