Episode 547- Tate Hackert

Welcome to Episode 547 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiates you when you’re at work.

And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and, more importantly, changing the workplace because of it.

If you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe on the podcast so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week. And this week is no different with my guest, Tate Hackert. He’s the founder and President of ZayZoon. And now, he’s with me here today. Tate, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And

Tate: Thanks for having me, man.

John: Yeah. This is gonna be a blast. This is gonna be so much fun ’cause I know nothing about any of this, so this is gonna be so fun. But I have 17 rapid-fire questions. Get to know Tate out of the gate here. So you’re buckled in, ready to go. All right, here we go. Favorite movie of all time?

Tate: Blow, Johnny Depp.

John: Oh, okay. There you go. Solid pick. Solid pick. How about when it comes to puzzles? Sudoku, Crossword, or a Jigsaw puzzle?

Tate: Ooh, I play neither of them, so I’d have to say something random like a game of Risk or chess.

John: Oh, Risk. Nice. And Chess. Okay. Solid. All right. We can keep hanging out. All right. We’re good. We’re good. How about a favorite color?

Tate: Favorite color’s purple.

John: Oh, really? Okay. I don’t get that one very often.

Tate: Highly underrated color.

John: It is highly underrated. And there’s such a spectrum there as well.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly.

John: Yeah, absolutely. How about a least favorite color?

Tate: I’m not a huge red fan, I don’t think. Yeah, I’ll say red.

John: Red Works. Absolutely. Are you more talk or text?

Tate: I’m more text. Text for business. Talk for personal.

John: Oh, okay. All right. A little bit of both.

Tate: Oddly enough. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Interesting. All right. How about a favorite comedian?

Tate: Oh, John, I can’t say you, can I?

John: Yeah. Now, you’re just kissing up. Now, you’re just kissing up. Right? Yeah, you can if you want, but I’m sure it’s somebody else.

Tate: Honestly, I’m a big fan of whatever’s on the Netflix special that month, so whatever the flavor of the week is. I feel like Netflix has been putting us some solid specials.

John: Yeah, tons of good ones. And buddies of mine too like Ryan Hamilton, Nate Bargatze, like those guys coming out with the specials, which is great. It’s really cool to see them doing that. All right. Very good. How about a least favorite vegetable?

Tate: You know, I still don’t like the Brussels sprouts unless they’re like cooked perfectly. You know, when they grill the Brussel sprouts and they throw some bacon on there, a lot of salt?

John: Right.

Tate: Yeah, that’s all right, but I still can’t get over them.

John: Make them not healthy at all. Like basically, it’s the only way I’ll eat ’em too.

Tate: It’s like the charred ones. Yeah. Those are solid.

John: Right. Exactly. Yeah. There you go. How about more Star Wars or Star Trek?

Tate: So John, I have a confession. I have not watched either.

John: Oh, okay. Nothing of neither. Okay. Wow. All right. Fair enough.

Tate: You know, I haven’t been a very big— What do you call that? Like fantasy fiction?

John: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, that works. Yeah.

Tate: I’ve never seen Lord of the Rings. I’ve never seen Star Trek, Star Wars.

John: No. Fair enough. Fair enough. This one you gotta answer. PC or Mac?

Tate: Mac.

John: Mac. Yeah. Okay. All right. Ooh, this is a good one. Cheeseburger or pizza?

Tate: Cheeseburger.

John: Oh. Oh, okay. You didn’t even think about that one. You’re like done.

Tate: No. Double In-N-Out. That’s what it’s all about.

John: Oh, oh, okay. Okay. All right. Do you prefer more hot or cold?

Tate: Hot.

John: Hot. Okay. All right. How about ice cream? Do you get it in a cup or in a cone?

Tate: Cup.

John: Cup. Yeah, me too. I think you get more, I think. I don’t know. That’s what I tell myself anyway.

Tate: I feel like I can eat more and not feel as bad.

John: Ah, yeah, there you go. ‘Cause you’re not eating the cup too.

Tate: Exactly. Yeah.

John: Yeah, yeah. There you go. All right. All right. I see where you’re going. How about a favorite sports team?

Tate: Vancouver Canucks.

John: Oh, Canucks. All right. There you go. All right. How about a favorite number?

Tate: 7.

John: 7? Is there a reason?

Tate: No, it’s just the first number that came to mind.

John: Yeah, I know. I mean, it’s my favorite number too. Mostly sports related, but yeah. And then it’s pretty popular. How about when it comes to books, audio version, e-Book, or a real book?

Tate: A real book. Yeah. I like to feel them.

John: No, it’s definitely a lot better. All right, two more.

Ooh, this is a fun one. Favorite Disney character. There’s like a million of them. So it’s like anything animated I’ll take pretty much.

Tate: Yeah. Yeah. Gimme a couple of yours, John.

John: Oh, Goofy and Donald Duck easily when it comes to the old school classics.

Tate: Yeah. I’ll take some Donald Duck action for sure.

John: Yeah, it’s hilarious. And he’s wearing no pants and no one ever says anything about this. Like anybody? No? Okay. Like nothing. He’s got a shirt on, but no pants.

Tate: Yeah, I’m Team Donald for sure.

John: Yeah. Yeah. All right. And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Tate: So as of recent, I just bought an electric scooter. So I’m on this road trip right now across the US, and we’re in this RV. And of course, as you can imagine, trying to park the RV in downtown course and whatnot is just so difficult. And so, we went to Target and bought these scooters. They’re like $350 and they get you, I think, 6 miles or so. They go 15 miles an hour. And that has been a lifesaver. You pull ’em out, you rip on ’em, it’s beautiful. Best purchase.

John: That’s fantastic. So they’re like the ones that are just parked around downtowns, but they’re probably a little bit better and you don’t have to rent it because it’s like you just have your own.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly. And Target has a 90-day return policy, so we’ll see how much I like it after the rodeo.

John: What do you know? On the 89th day, I decided I need to return it and go to the next Target and buy a new one. And then you just do that every quarter. I see what’s going on here. I like that. That’s a good idea. So your favorite thing is technically the receipt that you’re keeping for the scooter.

Tate: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

John: It’s probably your favorite part of it. That’s great, man. Well, let’s talk about martial arts. We do boxing and jujitsu. And I guess just what are the differences there between the two?

Tate: I’ve been involved in martial arts my whole life really. You know, I was first put into jujitsu when I was 5 years old. And then most of the clubs that you’re a part of, they tend to morph over the years into a place that doesn’t just do one thing. And so, they’ll do jujitsu, and boxing, and kickboxing or whatever else. Right? And especially, I think, with the rise of like MMA over the years and the popularity UFC, sort of like a multidisciplinary club is what’s most popular. And so, you know, I started with jujitsu, but it really morphed into a lot of boxing over the years. And I think jujitsu is like a really solid foundation and a solid base. But you know, boxing is just a fun sport. They’re both really fun. I think of jujitsu as more of like a game of chess. And boxing’s a little bit more of just a bit more intensity I suppose.

John: Yeah. So jujitsu is feet and hands, I guess. And then boxing, obviously just hands, like just punching obviously. I know boxing ’cause it’s on TV more. But you know, when UFC, or MMA, or all that stuff, like that’s more jujitsu style.

Tate: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John: Okay.

Tate: I mean, like you can kind of think of it anything from a throw to the ground, this jujitsu, and then rolling around on the ground essentially. So when people use the language like grappling, they’re talking about this.

John: Oh, yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

Tate: Wrestling movement on the ground. Right? Usually ending in some sort of submission. So, an arm bar or a choke.

John: Got it. Oh, okay. All right. I was thinking of something totally different then. All right, no, that makes sense then. Yeah, that’s cool, man. And do you feel like this is something that gives you a skill that you bring to work at all?

Tate: Yeah, yeah, certainly. I think martial arts is a really neat sport because it is entirely individual, but yet there’s such a team behind you and there’s that camaraderie that exists at a gym. And especially if you’re part of like a really inclusive leave the ego at the door type style gym, it really does like teach you that like discipline, and sportsmanship, and team, and how to lead, and how to follow in some instances, and sort of that ebb and flow that you need to interact in an organization, right? Like when to speak up, when to not speak up. And so, I always found that really interesting about martial arts. And absolutely, like it’d be difficult maybe to pinpoint like an exact use case of how that maybe gets applied in the workplace, but certainly it does.

John: I would imagine discipline as well, I mean, you know, when it comes to work and focus and also just that mental toughness. I mean, I would imagine there’s a couple times when you get punched in the face or you’re getting arm barred or whatever. Like that’s not comfortable, you know, and yet you fight through it and you get through it. And you know, it’s similar at work where you figuratively get punched in the face, you know.

Tate: Yeah. It’s certainly a war of attrition at times. And then, as well, like I was fortunate enough to actually have like full-on fights like in front of a crowd and whatnot. Right?

John: Oh, wow. Okay.

Tate: That’s something that from a— I don’t know the word that you use. I guess like it feels silly to say like courage or— but just like being able to get up there and put yourself out there, I think, is such a scary concept and definitely something that like goes across various parts of your life.

So yeah, it’s been a fun sport to be involved in. It’s one that I was super, super involved in when I was younger, you know, maybe between the age of like 12 and 19. It was something I did religiously every day of the week, if not a couple days of the week. Sorry, a couple times a day. And it was something that my cousin and I have always been very, very close. And he actually went pro, lived in Vegas for a while, and did the whole pro fighter thing and part of that whole UFC circuit and everything else. But him and I have always been incredibly tight from a young age.

Like he’s 3-1/2 years older than me. And it was a time to like hang out, but also the to and from the gym. So the closest gym to us growing up was a 35-minute drive away, 40-minute drive away. And so, there was like that time before and after of just sort of like brotherhood that we had together and it was all built around this like concept of the gym. Right? So it’s always been a very big part of my life in that sense. And then I’m 30 years old now. And over the last 10 years, it’s something that sort of comes and goes just depending on the months or the years. But you know, it’s definitely a very big part of my life still.

John: But it’s always there, you know. Like it’s not something that, yeah, if I told you you could never do this again, you would be like “Oh, you’re getting ready to see what an arm bar is, John.” You know? Because you would be like “No, those are fighting words.” You know? And that’s an important piece of who you are and that’s cool, man. And so, I mean, you mentioned being able to get in the ring, I guess, or whatever in front of crowds. Do you have any favorite memories from your time doing this?

Tate: Yeah. So I have a favorite memory, not necessarily from like the fight itself. But the first time I ever went to Vegas, I was 17 years old and my cousin at the time— So I don’t know if you know anything about the UFC or the Ultimate Fighter, but back in— it would have been 2008— yeah, 2008-2009— the UFC, the Ultimate Fighter was a show on Spike TV.

John: Right. Oh, yeah.

Tate: And it was so, so popular. And it’s really what like skyrocketed the popularity of UFC. And the concept was there was two coaches, two professional fight coaches. They each had a team behind them and they all lived in this fighter house. And you know, basically, the last man standing got a contract with UFC. And so, at that time, Wanderlei Silva was one of the UFC champs. And he had kind of gone off and wanted to start his own version of this called Wan TV. And so, he had a full production crew in Las Vegas. He had a fighter house that he got for a team.

And my cousin, Mike, was a part of this. So he was selected to be one of the fighters on this show. And so, when I was 17, he’s been living down in Vegas now for a couple months as part of this experience. And I went down to visit him. I mean, I think there’s like a couple things that came out of that that was just so cool. Like, first, it’s like you see these people on TV all the time. And as someone that’s like a super big fan of fighting and being such a big piece of my life, it was so cool to be able to interact with these people like in a gym setting.

And then the second thing that’s a memory from that, I don’t know if it’s a good memory, I stayed in the fighter house with all these professional fighters. And I was only there for 3 days. And so, I didn’t buy groceries. I was eating out. But the one morning, I wanted some toast with peanut butter ’cause I knew that we were gonna go to the gym. I didn’t have time to go to Denny’s to get breakfast. And so, I just grabbed a slice of bread and some peanut butter in the fridge.

John: Right.

Tate: I’m not thinking anything of it. And one of the guys got really, really pissed at me. Basically saying like this is my food and a bunch of profanity.

John: Yeah. Like you stole it. And it’s like a slice of bread. Like “Come on, man.”

Tate: Like fair enough. Like, you know, I wasn’t really thinking at that time. But at the same time, yeah, a tablespoon of peanut butter and a slice of bread, like come on.

John: Yeah. Right, right, right.

Tate: But yeah. So my cousin had to come in and sort of like diffuse the situation a little bit.

John: And those are not guys you want to like make angry, you know.

Tate: Exactly.

John: But I just remember that being very funny afterwards anyways.

Tate: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it’s cool to be able to hang out with them and like yeah. And you’ll remember that about that fighter and be like, you know, because I mean it’s the same thing with me and comedians. People are “Well, what’s so and so like?” And 99% of the time, they’re super cool. But once in a while, it’s the 1% that’s like ” Oh, I don’t know if I’m allowed to— Like should I tell you and like ruin it for you like ’cause this is your favorite comedian and I’m gonna be like total jerk like total jerk?”

John: Don’t meet your heroes thing. Right?

Tate: Yeah, exactly. But it is cool to be able to lift the curtain and then you get to see the behind the scenes because on TV it’s not real, you know. It’s only what makes it to the television and then you get to see all the other stuff that’s behind the scenes of all the work and all the grind really and all that.

That’s cool, man. So this is something that you do share at work? Have you talked about it at work?

John: Yeah. So you know what? ZayZoon’s interesting. I have no idea if this is normal or not. I don’t think it’s super normal, but we have a thing called drink and thinks. And so, every single week, we rotate through different teams. So you know, software development, product, customer support, etc., etc. They’ll pick someone from that team to basically lead, drink, and think for the day. And drink and think is this 45-minute session typically on a Friday afternoon. But again, it can be whenever.

And sometimes, those people share things about a new product at work or something that they came across, something interesting. But 90% of the time, they’re sharing stories about their life. And so, like our VP of tech, he has this huge Lego hobby. He actually has like 15,000 followers on Instagram for this Lego account where he built different structures and stuff. And so, he like shared that. We had another guy just last week shared his passion for Sumo wrestling.

John: Okay.

Tate: And so, yeah, we definitely like filter through that and make it part of the culture at ZayZoon where it’s like one of our core values is mastery. And mastery is this concept of like just continually learning and having this insatiable thirst for knowledge. And so, we really see that like people sharing their individual— I mean like What’s Your “And”?— I mean, people sharing that at work is definitely embedded deep into our culture. And one of those ways that we flex that is through that drink and think.

John: And why do you think it’s so important to share the human side to each of us, you know, share those ands?

Tate: Well, I mean, for us, like we’re a completely distributed team. So we’re 80 individuals. We’re still fairly small as a company. But you know, at 80 people, you start to feel things break a little bit, especially when you’re growing fast and people are coming on quite quickly. The company’s changing week by week. And I think it’s important to share that kind of human element because you might not have that water cooler chat. You might not have that out for lunch with your coworkers type thing. And so, being able to share that over Google Meets is impactful for kind of I guess just creating a deeper relationship with your coworkers.

John: Yeah. And I mean, as the founder, like it’s okay to not be “working” to get to know each other because there’s benefits in the long run for that ’cause a lot of people will think “Well, you know, there’s work to be done. Why are you humanizing?” Why are you actually talking to each other type of thing. And it’s great that you have that perspective.

Tate: I think, as an entrepreneur, like work is life and that sort of work life balance maybe all becomes one. And so, when I’m doing martial arts, for example, I think of that as just one facet of my life. And I think of it as a way that I can better perform at work because it allows me that meditative sort of release. And so, I think the same thing with our staff, right? Like, yeah, absolutely, sharing, and talking, and interacting with your coworkers is 100% part of work because that’s what makes people want to be at work. It’s what makes people want to stay at ZayZoon potentially longer than they would otherwise. Right? And I mean, employee retention, and happiness, morale is obviously incredibly important to a company from a feel good perspective, but also to a company from an economics perspective.

John: Absolutely. I mean, it’s straight dollars but it’s also, like you said, good karma and feel good perspective of that. And I love that that’s a thing. That every Friday afternoon, like a different group is presenting. And you know, on occasion, it turns human and brings that human out from behind the job title, which is really, really fantastic.

Tate: And I think like you asked me specifically, like do I bring that out ever? So yeah, like, I mean, it’s part of the drink and think. One thing I try to do ’cause I might not be that interesting, so I try to flex my network and bring interesting people in.

John: Okay. All right.

Tate: So my drink and thinks typically are like guest speakers and that might range from— We had a fitness coach that coached professional athletes and stuff. And so, he kind of drew analogies to the coaching professional athletes and leadership in the workplace. But specific to this discussion is Ryan James. So Ryan James is an ex-UFC fighter and a friend of mine that I brought in to do a drink and think. And it was really, really cool because you see the team like sink their teeth into the question and answer part, right? Like some of the questions you asked me like how do you have that consistency day after day, like were you scared walking into the ring? How do you let go of that fear? And those are questions that are applied to every part of your life, right? It’s not just the sport or the activity that you’re in.

John: No, that’s awesome, man. But it lets people see that side of Tate ’cause I mean some people that come in new, they might be intimidated. “Oh, he’s the founder.” And it’s like “Nah, it’s just Tate. He gets punched in the face. Go talk to him. He’s cool.”

Like you know? Rather, he punches people in the face. No. No. I’m kidding. But it humanizes you, you know. And it brings out these other sides to you that now people are like “Oh, okay.” And then if they have a similar interest, then you guys have something to bond over in a cool way. And I love that that’s a thing there. Like it’s not forced. It’s not orchestrated. It’s just if I were to start, it’s like Yeah, we do this drink and think on Fridays. It’s what we do, you know, and then it’s just a thing, which I love.” That’s so awesome, man. That’s so awesome. And so, do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe feels like, well, I have an “and”, but no one’s gonna care ’cause it has nothing to do with my job?

Tate: So I haven’t been a part of the corporate world ever. My background is commercial fishing and construction. And so, I’ve now been in the tech world for 8 years. But you know, me personally having a corporate job, like I can’t believe that that’s actually a thing that people aren’t about to talk about in the workplace. Like everything that I’m saying, everything that I do I just assume is normal.

John: You would hope, but it’s not like unfortunately.

Tate: Exactly. Like we’re doing this RV tour right now across the US. And so, I’m setup in this ZayZoon branded RV, and we’re going coast to coast visiting all of our clients and employees that use us and the partners that we’re partnered with. And we’re bringing along team members for each like of the stint like of the trip. Right? And it’s cool to me to like hear them say “Hey, like it is so great that you’re including us in this. It’s so great that like you’re so chill.” And again, like in my mind, it’s just normal.

John: Yeah, right. No, same. Like, it’s like “Well, how would you expect me to be? Like what did you think it was gonna be?” Like you know? And it’s like “I’m just me, man.”

Tate: But I think we’ve done a pretty good job at ZayZoon of building a culture and an organization that’s as horizontal as it can be. Of course, the key decision maker and whatnot is still very important. And you can’t build through consensus, but you can gather inputs and then make a decision.

John: Yeah. Somebody has to make a call at some point.

Tate: Exactly. Exactly. But I really can’t believe that there’s organizations out there that would stop someone from talking about their “and.”

John: More than you would like to imagine. Or it’s maybe they don’t slap on the wrist, but it’s not encouraged, you know. So then people feel like, well, if no one else is talking about it, then it’s a trap, so I can’t talk about it sort of a thing. And I mean, when I worked at PWC, I mean, I was too dumb to know that I was supposed to just say— You know, when people are like “Hey, what’d you do this weekend”, “Nothing.” You know? It’s like “No, I drove to this city and did comedy shows.” And then people are like “Wait, you did what?” You know? And it’s like time out, hold on, you know? And then that’s cool because people remember you then. Everyone’s good at their jobs. I mean, we’re all good at our work. I mean, come on, you know? Plus or minus, we’re all good.

So you’re not standing out from the work side. And so, you stand out from the human side with the technical skills. Like that combo is what makes you unique and everyone that works at ZayZoon as well. So I love that that’s a thing there, you know. It’s just how it is. So that’s awesome, man. Very, very cool. Well, this has been so much fun, but I feel like it’s only fair— I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning. So we can turn the tables and we’ll make it The Tate Hacker Podcast if you would like to ask me any questions yet. You got Anything for me? Whatever you want to ask.

Tate: Well, I mean, so being a comedian and going up on stage, I think that’s probably very akin to being a fighter and going into the ring.

John: Very much so, dude, like so much.

Tate: It’s an individual sport, and you are for sure figuratively getting punched in the face. I’m curious. Do you have a moment that you can recall that was just you felt absolutely terrible walking off the stage? And kind of walk me through like the thought that was going through or maybe what made you feel terrible in the first place. Was it internal feelings or was it someone in the crowd heckling and then how’d you overcome that?

John: That’s a great question, man. Yeah. I mean, there’s lots of times ’cause, I mean, especially when you’re new, I mean, you’re not good. And the only way to get good is to get in the ring. You know, there’s no body bags for comedy. Like I can’t just like practice. It’s you gotta get in front of a live audience and let it rip and then decide if it’s funny or not. And so, yeah, I mean, when I was newer, I mean for sure like maybe a bar show or something like that where people “When are you gonna talk about midgets?” And it’s like “I’m not.” You know? And I’m also not gonna swear or like do stupid like— you know, it’s not a bunch of poop jokes. It’s like they wanna hear a joke about like a drunk midget walking through a Taco Bell drive-thru ’cause that’s so funny. Oh, my goodness. And especially when I was new, I was more clever than funny.

It was a little more clever than funny. And I’ll admit that. And so, you had to learn to like still be clever, but more funny and yeah. So you just record the audio and then listen and be like “Oh, that’s where I messed up” or “You know, that’s not my audience. We’re not sumo wrestling. Like that’s not my thing. Like we’re doing jujitsu. Like I’m not doing sumo, you know, or whatever.” I’m trying to think of whatever the parallel would be, but you just know where you belong and whatever. And then the one in particular was a— it was a corporate audience and it was for real estate agents. And they do not laugh at themselves for a second.

And all of their headshots are like glamor shots from like the early ’90s with like lasers, and poof hair, and whatever. And even though now they’re 30 years older, but you can’t make fun of that ’cause it’s all of them. So, you know, it’s not just like one of ’em didn’t update. It’s “No, none of you have.” And so, I found that out too where it’s like, yeah, when you bomb away on something that’s clearly obvious to everyone else, that’s really sensitive point for them I guess. But yeah, you just learn. I mean, I would imagine the same. Like you’ve been in some sparring type things where you move the wrong way and you get popped, well, I’m not gonna do that again except for yours are more physical bruising. Mine’s a more ego bruising, which I feel like lasts longer sadly, you know.

Tate: I was gonna say that’s probably worse. I have an answer by the way for my favorite comedian. Yeah, you talked about like being clever and storytelling. Mike Birbiglia.

John: Oh, Birbiglia. Yeah, absolutely.

Tate: Birbiglia’s hands down my favorite comedian. What was his last special? God Hates Jokes, was it?

John: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tate: I think it was something like that and then he had the other one, My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend.

John: Right. Exactly.

Tate: Just incredible how he tells the story the entire time and ties it back.

John: Yeah. It is very much the storytelling side of it. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool, man. Thank you so much, Tate, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This has been super, super fun.

Tate: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

John: Everyone listening, if you wanna see some pictures of Tate in action or maybe connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. Everything’s there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. So, thanks again for subscribing to the podcast on Apple Podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread, that who you are is so much more than what you do.