Episode 565- Matt Banker

Matt is a Marketer & Conceptual Artist

Matt Banker talks about his passion for conceptual art, what conceptual art is, how it has applied to his career in marketing, and much more!

Episode Highlights
• What conceptual art is
• Getting into conceptual art
• Not doing it for money
• Talking about art at work
• Majors and minors in life




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about Corporate Culture!

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Matt’s Pictures

Oil paintings on canvas – Mill

Suspended grass installation art piece

Oil paintings on canvas – Overpass

Suspended grass installation art piece

Matt’s Links


  • Read Full TranscriptOpen or Close

    Welcome to Episode 565 of What’s Your “And”? This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional, who just like me, is known for a hobby, or a passion, or an interest outside of work.

    And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their “and”, those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you at work. It’s the answer to the question of, who else are you besides the job title?

    And if you like what the show is about, be sure to check out the award-winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at whatsyourand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside work passions are so crucial to the corporate culture.

    And I can’t say how much it means that everyone is reading it and writing such nice reviews on Amazon and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it.

    And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice reading the book, look for What’s Your “And”? on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks.

    And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast, so you don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week.

    And this week is no different with my guest, Matt Banker. He’s the founder and lead strategist at Benchmark Growth Marketing, an agency specifically for B2B accounting firms. And now, he’s with me here today.

    Matt, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

    Matt: Thanks, John. This is fun. I’m glad to be here.

    John: Oh, this is going to be a blast. I have seventeen rapid-fire questions, so we’d go to know Matt right out of the gate here before we hang out and do some art or look at art or, yeah, whatever is going to happen. So, I’d like to know who I’m hanging with.

    So, this is going to be a hard one, super hard one as an artist. Do you have a favorite color?

    Matt: Well, my daughter tells me that I don’t like pretty colors because she – I like black and gray and gray and black. So, I do like colors, but if I had to say a favorite, I should say it’s black, I guess it’s black.

    John: Okay. All right. All the shades of black. All right.

    Matt: That’s right.

    John: That’s awesome.

    How about a least favorite color? The pretty ones I guess, like it’s that.

    Matt: No, I don’t know. Like you said, I’m into art, I do like a lot of colors. Probably there’s versions of pink I guess that I don’t like. You know, kind of like a brownish pink maybe.

    John: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, that sounds gross, like it’s just like terrible. I’m with you on that one.

    How about oceans or mountains?

    Matt: Oceans.

    John: Oceans. Yeah, because it’s usually summer warm for some reason in my mind.

    Matt: It is.

    John: Oceans don’t exist where they’re cold in my brain for some reason.

    Matt: I’m in Minnesota, if I’m going to go somewhere, I’m going to go to the ocean where it’s warm.

    John: Right, exactly, exactly.

    How about a favorite actor or an actress?

    Matt: Favorite actor or actress? Can I say director?

    John: Yeah. Favorite director, let’s switch it up, absolutely.

    Matt: I like Wes Anderson films…

    John: Oh, yeah.

    Matt: And so, there’s like the same seven actors in those, so those are my favorite actors.

    John: Yeah. Yeah. No, they’re all buddies. Exactly. No, I love it.

    Matt: Owen Wilson probably, you know.

    John: Yeah. Right, exactly. There you go.

    All right. How about a favorite TV show of all time?

    Matt: Oh, of all time, Firefly. It’s a sci-fi Western…

    John: Oh, yeah.

    Matt: Only one season, great show though.

    John: Yeah, really good. And that’s great because they didn’t bleed it out too long. You know, like some of those shows, they’re like, oh, let’s make more money and it’s like, no, let’s keep it good.

    How about puzzles? Sudoku, crosswords, jigsaw puzzle, or I guess Wordle now is the big one?

    Matt: Oh, you know, I’ve got an ongoing – we can talk about this more later, I’ve got an ongoing art project that involves jigsaw puzzles, so I’ll say jigsaw puzzles.

    John: Nice, I like it. Okay. All right.

    How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

    Matt: It’s got to be Star Trek. I thought Andor was amazing. It was maybe the best show I thought this year, so I like Star Wars, I like what Disney is doing with it again. It’s – that’s a lot of fun.

    John: Yeah. Yeah. All right. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

    Matt: I’m a Mac guy in the design world. You know, we were all in the Mac.

    John: Yeah. I’m not cool enough to even go into a Mac store, I don’t think. So, I just look at the window and like, hey, you guys look awesome.

    Matt: Yeah. We’ll wave and say hi to you.

    John: Yeah, pretty much, like, look at that android, oh, my God.

    Oh, sunrises or sunsets?

    Matt: Boy, I wish I was a morning person because I do love a good sunrise.

    John: But they happen so early.

    Matt: Aspirationally, sunrise.

    John: Okay. Okay. I love that answer, that’s honest. It’s very honest.

    I’m a huge ice cream fan. Ice cream in a cup or in a cone?

    Matt: In a cup.

    John: Cup?

    Matt: Yeah.

    John: It’s more efficient.

    How about a favorite animal, any animal?

    Matt: Falcon?

    John: Oh, okay.

    Matt: Maybe, it goes back to the Star Wars thing.

    John: Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Okay. All right. I see where you’re going here.

    And in marketing, do you prefer more hard copy print marketing or digital marketing?

    Matt: I have a soft spot for good, you know, traditional marketing, but I’m definitely in the digital marketing space. That’s more of my expertise, so I would say digital.

    John: That’s what I figured. All right, fair.

    How about your first concert?

    Matt: Oh, first concert was it was a youth group church trip to a local band called PFR.

    John: Okay. All right. There you go.

    How about favorite number? You have any number?
    Matt: I’ll go with 7, I think.

    John: Is there a reason? Is it, you know, it’s because I asked, like –?

    Matt: Yeah, it’s the number of completion, I think is. I don’t know.

    John: Fair. Yeah. And for me, it’s probably sports influenced as well. You know, there’s always that part of it that accidentally creeps in from a kid.

    All right. We got three more. Books? Audio version, ebook, or a real book?

    Matt: These days, I’m a big audio book fan. I like to multitask and, you know, do other things while I’m learning.

    John: Right. And I mean, you pick up just as much. I mean, it’s amazing or even just driving down a road. I mean, instead of listening to the same song on seven different radio stations, it’s like, oh, I can be learning stuff.

    How about toilet paper roll? Over or under?

    Matt: I don’t have a strong opinion on this one, but I guess I would say over.

    John: Okay. All right. Yeah. No, fair.

    And the last one, the favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

    Matt: You know, right now, it’s these noise cancelling earbuds that I’ve got, they’ve been great, like the ability to really, you know, goes back to that audiobook thing really block out the world and just be able to hear what’s going on.

    John: And you don’t have to do the full Bose headset kind of thing, it’s just the earbuds and, yeah, yeah.

    Matt: Technology is impressive with these things.

    John: It really is.

    So, let’s talk conceptual art and what is that compared to just like other art I guess just for the people like me listening?

    Matt: The way I talk about it is if you’ve ever gone into like a contemporary art museum or a modern art museum and you see something that’s like confusing, it makes you a little bit angry, you’re not sure if art is a complete scam and it just feels like it’s not a real thing. That’s probably conceptual art.
    John: Okay. All right, fair.

    Matt: It’s something I – I studied in school, I kind of accidentally ended up in an art program and I was really drawn to sculpture and to this conceptual side, which is in a lot of ways like throughout history, some of the most important artists have been conceptual artists, but they’re not exactly the ones that we always think about.

    But, if you were to talk to like current art nerds, a lot of the – what they say like the top artists in the world, they’re going to be this conceptual artist. And the weird thing is so little of the public knows anything about conceptual art or this kind of the contemporary movement.

    But, you know, I found it fascinating and was really interested in it despite it being like a weird niche. It’s just like really rich people on Wall Street and really poor artists who are trying to make a living…

    John: That’s a weird mix of –

    Matt: They care about it, so…

    John: That’s quite the extremes. That’s exactly it. I love it.

    And so, in school and – were you making pieces? Obviously, I’m sure it was more than just studying it.

    Matt: I’ll kind of unpack it a little bit. So, the main thing about conceptual art is that it’s got a concept or an idea behind it. And so, the artist is really trying to say something using visual elements to say it. And specifically what I was doing was a thing called installation art, which means it’s the type of art that you install into a space.

    So, it’s not – you don’t hang it on the wall. Usually, it’s not the sort of sculpture that you walk around, but I ended up using, you know, I did a lot of wood working and building skills. You know, just it was with wood and metal and things like that and I would install these pieces and then, there’s concepts behind it and I’m definitely a guy who’s in my head.

    And so, I was really drawn even though I’ve always enjoyed art, it wasn’t about like emotional expression, which is sort of the classic artist personality that you might think of, but it was more of communicate ideas in sort of a non-traditional way.

    And the nice thing about art is that it can kind of take a sideways angle, you know, to getting ideas across, whereas it’s not like that direct communication, but it sort of seeps into people through, you know, these visual means and all of that.

    So, that’s kind of where I got started and like I said, I did a lot of building. You know, one of my projects I actually was growing like grass indoors and then suspending it from the ceiling on these little like plots of ground in the art gallery. And so, people would walk in and there’d be, you know, I mean you use the house plants, but you don’t often see like a mini yard especially hanging, you know, it’s hanging out like chest height, so you can see some of the roots going down underneath and then the grass growing up above.

    And I was just fascinated with some of those visual ideas and then, you know, there’s some interesting concepts behind it that I was trying to explore.

    John: Yeah. That’s awesome, man. Yeah. Because I mean those installation pieces, yeah, I mean, you have to have some space for that, that’s not a little thing usually.

    Matt: Yeah, you really do. And I mean, again, maybe I joke a lot about art because it’s hard to make a living in art. I’m in marketing now, there’s a lot more money, it’s easier, you know, to find customers and I had chosen the type of art that was like the least saleable in the world. You know, you can’t even sell.

    You know, you can sell a painting, they can take it home and put it on their wall, but, you know, installing it in the space, I don’t even know what the business model is for that exactly, so I was just interested in the idea of that really.

    John: Yeah. So, I got this floating grass and we’re going to put it in your entry way and it’s like, what? Like grass, like what kind of house do you live in?

    Matt: And to be fair, I do a lot of painting as well. You know, I do some oil painting and things like that and that what I’m interested in art. There are some things that are a little bit more I would say accessible to the general public.

    But, you know, when you say like, what’s your “and”?, the reason I think of conceptual art is because it’s really a thing in my life that almost nobody else really is into. You know, if I go to an art museum with my friends, they’ll like look at things and like, ah, my four-year old could do that.

    John: Right.

    Matt: And I’m looking at, I’m like, oh, this is so fascinating, this is so interesting and so…

    John: The levels of genius, like, yeah. Is your four-year old a genius because this is the best thing I’ve ever seen, you know, like it’s no, that’s so true, man. It’s so true. But, I love how you said where it takes an angle that just kind of seeps in and it doesn’t hit the person maybe right away, but who knows, you know, one month, three months, you know, a year later.

    And it’s the same with, you know, when I did comedy or, you know, my speaking where it doesn’t hit you right away, but the next time you see a crackpot, you’re going to laugh your butt off, I guarantee it, you know, like when the McRib is back is on because you’re going to be like, oh, remember when. And it’s just one of those where it’s a beautiful thing to know that you’re now a part of someone else. You know, you got real estate going on in their brain now, which is pretty incredible to make a difference and how people are enjoying life, which is kind of cool.

    Matt: Yeah. I love the visual side of things. You know, that definitely led me to where I went in my career. You know, in marketing and design there’s a lot of overlap there, but there is something – the nice thing about – well, I don’t know, there’s a big Venn Diagram, but art is not trying to sell you something, there’s like there is a bit of a purity to it.

    And I mean, again, going back to this conceptual art and some of the more kind of like out there abstract stuff, it’s almost in a weird way there’s almost no point. It’s both trying to make a major statement and at the same time in some ways kind of has very little like monetary or commercial value. The artist really has to care about what they’re saying because they’re not – I mean, there are some people that make a little bit – that make some good money at it, but there’s like seven of them in the world that are doing this well.

    But so many artists that go down this path, they’re fascinated by the idea or the form. And it’s kind of a I think there’s an interesting like purity in that, like it’s away from their like crafts marketing that I do every day in my job.

    John: Yeah. Yeah, because they’re not doing it to make money, they’re doing it because it’s inside them and I have to get this out.

    Matt: Now, I should say I do believe that artists should like they do deserve to make good money doing what they were – what they’re doing. I totally wish that, you know, people could find a better way.

    I never found a great pathway to make money doing art and, you know, now that I – I’ve, you know, come into a different career, it’s enjoyable actually to be able to go back and create art without that pressure of needing to make a lot of money off of it.

    John: Which is why it’s an “and”. You know, it’s a hobby, it’s a thing that, you know, hey, I don’t have to be revenue-generating at this. It’s something that I love to do for me, you know, and I’m not doing it for money or for my career or for your judgment, I don’t care. Like, I enjoy conceptual art, I don’t care what you think, like, you know, I’m doing this for me, which is great because then it takes all the pressure off of that.

    And how important do you think it is to have that “and”, you know, or the container of “and” if you will of things outside of work?
    Matt: Yeah. Well, I mean, like even pull it back just a little bit because it’s a thing that I’ve been thinking about a lot in my life. You know, you’ve got sort of the main buckets of what you have to do, right? You’ve got family and work and health and friends or whatever, you know all that stuff that’s just kind of built in and you have to think about.

    And I’ve gone to a point now where I think in any season of my life, I’ve decided that I’ve got – and I don’t remember where I pick this up, someone said it. But, I have a major and a minor in my life outside of like the main things and…

    John: Nice.

    Matt: You know, conceptual art and art in general is at times it’s one of those two things. Other times, you know, I put it on the back burner because I have a lot of other interests. So, I play music, I like to do furniture building. I’m getting into more of that, like traditional wood working stuff. Sometimes it’s video games, I mean…

    John: Absolutely.

    Matt: But, I’ve kind of gotten to this point where I don’t have room for everything that I like in my life, but I have to have something outside of just the work or the family stuff. And so, kind of – and season is loosely to find, but in each season I say, all right, I’ve got room for two things in my life outside of my main things. One of them is going to be for me, like it has to be kind of personal fulfilling, you know, that’s the art, that’s the music.

    And then, I try, with the other one, I try to do something that’s not me focused, that’s more like giving to other people or, you know, I volunteer on a summer camp board of directors right now. That’s like my – my minor and my major, you know, has been switching.

    So, I think it’s super important because it’s really easy to get caught up where (a) maybe you never do anything for yourself, you don’t have an “and” that is giving you life outside of work. And then, (b) I think some people actually can go the other way, where they get so self-focused, but they never really think about what’s my “and” that is not, you know, just for my own benefit, but has some benefit to the community or to other people. And I think that’s really good and healthy for people as well.

    John: No, I love that so much. I love that major, minor concept. And it’s interesting that the answer isn’t more work. You know, it’s more marketing and it’s like, no, I do my job, I’m good at my job, like get the basics done, but, you know, it’s totally crucial to have those majors and minors.

    And I love how you break it down intentionally with a me focus and then an outward focus, which is perfect.
    Matt: It also helps me release a little bit. There’s so many things I want to do, but it releases a little bit of that guilt of like, oh, I should do more art right now or I should – I haven’t played my guitar for, you know, six months or whatever. I just know that right now this is or isn’t one of the things that I’m going to focus on and so, I can just kind of let it go and say, I know I’m going to get back to that thing. It’s not that I don’t like it anymore, but it’s not one of the ones that I’m focused on right now.

    John: Yeah. But, there’s something, you know, which is great, it’s not like, you know, absolutely nothing, which it’s amazing how easy it is to put the guitar down and then not have anything else that it just goes dormant and then who knows how long, but then it goes extinct and then you forget what even brings me joy, I don’t even remember.

    I’ve talked to so many people where they’re just like, I don’t remember what I like to do besides work and you’re like, wow, that’s alarming, you know, I guess to put it nicely. But then, you find out that something like play guitar or run and it’s like, well, you don’t even – just pick it up, like you don’t even have to be good, like no one’s listening, you’re not on the stage in front of thousands of people, you know, just noodle around on the guitar and have some fun with it.

    Matt: I mean, I love the work that I do. You know, I’ve done different things in my career and ended up in a space where now I’m doing something that I’m good at, people will pay me for, you know, I enjoy doing it. That’s like that’s a really great sweet spot, but if you let yourself just sink into work only, it can really be overwhelming.

    And I, you know, I’ve done that at times as well, where I get so into the work stuff that I forget about some of that other, you know, the stuff that brings joy.

    John: Well, it’s such an easy thing because the very first thing that we put down is the one thing that brings us joy, you know, like because it doesn’t provide the mortgage or income or a job title, you know, like – and that’s the very first thing that we leave outside of the office or put down and never pick up again.

    And it’s a shame because it should be the other way around, like my dream is that organizations, you know, your external goals is part of their goal setting. You want to play guitar, you know, X times a year, okay, well, let’s measure that, you know, because that matter that means that you’re living your best life-type of thing.

    And so, I just love how you – you break that down and you’re aware of it, you know, because so many people, it slips by and – and is this something that you talk about with clients or maybe co-workers some of the art stuff or the music or the volunteering or some of those things?

    Matt: Right. It’s that concept of, you know, two things in your life, that comes up in conversation fairly regularly. A big overlap for me with, you know, having studied art, a lot of my interaction with art is actually in like a critic, like we’re analyzing something.

    So, in school, you know, we’d sit there and we’d look and say, oh, what’s this artist trying to communicate and is it effective? Like, oh, they used this color, what does that communicate about, you know, such and such.

    And in a weird way, you know, that’s a piece of what I studied that I use every day in my consulting, you know, marketing job where we’re sitting there looking at a website and saying, oh, you know, blue really communicates business and professionalism, but green is going to be a little bit more energetic or if you add like a nice accent color here, like, you know, what is the personality you’re trying to communicate. And so, there’s a lot of overlap.

    But also, you know, a lot of folks they don’t pick up on some of the subtler things that maybe are – are making, you know, having negative connotations about their business that they never realized, but as we do in art school, you’re like how you choose this, you know, specific thing because it’s – this is connected to this and this and this and people are going to assume that you mean whatever…

    John: It’s like, oh, I didn’t even know that was a thing. Like, I mean, I’ve had that happened before too where I’m like, “What? That’s a thing? I have no idea.” Like what thought or what – and like, what? Like, no.

    Matt: Right, exactly. Make sure you go and, you know, you type in whatever phrase or acronym, you know, in the urban dictionary to make sure it’s not – got some weird connotation, but you didn’t…

    John: Acronym or who knows what. Yeah, right? No, but that’s such a great point.

    And also too like I mean, I look at my background, you know, I’m a CPA with Big Four and then I went to full time standup for like ten years. But, I realized recently that like – and it’s probably like I mean, standup is art, but it’s like you can’t stay in like a trade school like you’re learning how to weld. Well, you can’t stay at ITT Tech forever, like eventually you have to go out and monetize this.

    And so, I feel like art is the same way, where it’s like those seven people can monetize it and the same in stand up, but if you really want to make a good living, like you use that skill in a different way and so, it’s awesome to hear how you’ve been able to – to really leverage that to help, you know, businesses be better.

    Matt: You know, I had no idea that was my path. I actually started in college as a – strangely enough, I started as a communications major and then I kind of slowly drifted, you know, communications into web design and to graphic design and to fine arts. And then, I ended up with conceptual art, you know, installation sculpture is my concentration and I still love that.

    But then, you know that you could almost trace it exactly backward. So, where I’m at now, I’m basically a communications consultant…

    John: I was going to say you do all of those things now. It’s a good thing you – you touched all those textbooks along the way, so finally the money paid off.

    But, yeah, I mean, in the same way like in the moment, it feels like what is going on, I have no idea what’s happening, it’s just total rollercoaster, yo-yo up and down, but look backwards, it’s a straight line. And it’s like in order for me to be where I am today, you know, speaking in conferences and helping organizations with their cultures, I have to have worked in the corporate world and then, I have to have done standup.

    I mean, I don’t even blink in front of audiences anymore, like you can’t faze me, like I’ve seen stuff and done stuff that like, yeah, nothing fazes me anymore, you know, like – and so, and the same with you, you know, like and it’s just a scale down version of these big installations that you’re installing onto a monitor, you know, as a website basically and how can we have some fun with that.

    Matt: I don’t have an accounting or CPA background, but I’ve ended up working primarily with accountants. And I don’t know if I can draw this direct line, but I – I think that some of the things I bring an analytical approach to art and that’s something that actually resonates with, like the analytical side of thing resonates with a lot of CPAs, but the art side of things is not something that necessarily comes naturally to people who went into a career that involves a lot of math.

    John: Definitely.

    Matt: And so, being able to kind of bring, you know, those pieces of my experience and brain to bear on behalf of, you know, an industry and clients who aren’t necessarily that’s not their sweet spot.

    But, you know, I can still speak a language that they kind of understand because it’s a little bit more analytical than maybe a typical, you know, this is going to sound like maybe worse than it is. But, you know, artists have this reputation for being kind of flaky and, you know…

    John: Well, they’re not – I mean, it’s the same with comedy – comedians. I mean, they’re show business. And there’s so many people that I know that are friends of mine that are unbelievably hilarious and no one will hear of them because the business side of it is not something that they can do.

    Their brain doesn’t operate that way. They can’t do both sides, you know, the creative, you know, right brain, with the analytical numbers, left brain and they can’t bridge that. And so, the fact that you have both that and you’re able to use that for good is fantastic, man. I love it, that’s awesome. So good, man.
    Well, this has been great. Do you have any words of encouragement to anyone listening that maybe has an “and” and they feel like, well, no one’s going to care because no one gets conceptual art anyway. No, I was just kidding. No. No, but, right?

    Matt: Okay. First thing if you’re listening, don’t try to go into conceptual art as a career path.

    John: If 18-year old Matt is listening. There you go.

    Matt: Well, I really am the sort of person that I don’t have any regrets about the path I took, I really feel like what I studied, you know, brought me and gave me the skills that I have now. And so, I think that’s really the advice, right? Like, you know, if you’re not satisfied, I know a lot of musicians friend, you know, people in show business comedy, you know, all that kind of stuff, where it’s a slug, but they don’t realize that the skills that they’ve developed there are actually really valuable in other areas.

    And so, if you’re looking for that pivot, you know, think through, you know, what are the underlying skills that you’ve developed because you care about this thing so much that can be really valuable in the marketplace.

    I think about like even people in the service industry. You know, servers are great project managers because they have to handle all these different things and they’re good with clients and all that. And they don’t realize, you know, there’s better money and it’s less stressful, you know, working for a marketing firm as a project manager, but your skill set might be perfectly something like that.

    So, you don’t know your skills are valuable, maybe you’re just not applying them like in the place that you should yet.

    John: Yeah. Of if it’s a hobby, keep the hobby and bring those skills into the office or into your career because it’s amazing how many things can come out of your “and”, you know, these passions that you have.

    And they’re so much more natural for you and you’ve been exercising it for so long. Well, that’s just great advice, man. I love it.

    And so, I feel like it’s only fair that before we wrap this up that I turn the tables because I rudely peppered you with questions. So, I will gladly turn this into the Matt Banker Podcast. Thanks for having me on and I booked myself, but anyway…

    Matt: Okay. Well, first question, we’re on a podcast, at some point you got into podcasting, what was the first podcast that you personally were really into or that like hooked you on podcast?
    John: So, you know what’s hilarious? I listen to no podcast. I don’t. Like if I a friend of mine is on or if, you know, hey, Adam Gray was on this one, it’s really great or if someone is on this one or whatever, then I’ll listen to that one, but I do not listen to podcasts…

    Matt: So, you follow the guest kind of?

    John: Yeah. Yeah. If it’s a friend of mine or someone that I would like to listen to, then I’ll listen, but maybe you can relate, like you’re either a creator or you’re a consumer. And I’m very much a creator. And I don’t have time for consuming because I’m creating.

    And also too, like I don’t want it to influence my creating too much, you know I’d like to be original and I think that comes from the comedy side of things, where it has to be one hundred percent original. And so, I don’t want to accidentally cherry-pick from others sort of thing. But, it is great to hear and be like, oh, what else is out there to make sure that I’m not accidentally doing that, but, yeah.

    So, I’m – I’m a terrible guest on your podcast clearly. So, I guess…

    Matt: Okay. Well, I’ve got others though. So, you did the CPA, you know, Big Four thing, you did the comedy thing. Was there a career that you almost had that you – that you took a weird veer away and ended up where you’re at now?

    John: Yeah. Well, I almost was – well, I was an engineering major for a semester and a half at Notre Dame and the Physics will do it for you. So, I don’t think Physics is real, I think it’s make belief to be honest.

    But, yeah, I remember the midterm exam the second semester for Physics and I turned it in halfway. It was one of those blue books, where there’s only four questions, but it will take you like an hour and a half because each like have twenty parts. And I think it was midway through the first question, I literally I was like, who cares? Like this isn’t – like a frog on a disc in a tree and a four, like what, who cares? I turned it in, I went to the counselor switched to business and it was like, peace, I’m out.

    But, yeah, engineering, I mean, I loved it, you know, I was – the whole numbers math, Legos background. I mean, I was a Lego wizard, but apparently that doesn’t translate to Physics.

    Matt: Unfortunately. One more question for you. What is the – this is a weird question maybe – what is the least interesting or like most boring thing about you?

    John: Oh, wow. Ah.

    Matt: It’s open-ended.

    John: So many things. The least interesting or boring, man, that is good.
    Matt: My answer to this is usually I talk about how — I’m into gardening, that’s like a boring most people. I think of it as just like a random boring thing about me, but I…

    John: Yeah. But, it’s something that other people find interesting maybe, but you’re like, yeah, I don’t know.

    Yeah. I mean, I guess that like I really like oatmeal, like I mean, that’s pretty boring. I cook it old school like in a pot and then, you know, like some blueberries, like a little bit of a – a little bit of an oatmeal snub I guess, a little bit of a connoisseur of sorts.

    Matt: The reason I love this question is because it’s hard to answer, but whatever people come up with is actually incredibly fascinating.

    John: Oh, yeah.

    Matt: You’re an oatmeal snub.

    John: Like, I was like I had someone once a couple of years ago on the podcast asked me, what’s the most interesting or coolest or, you know, what’s your favorite thing about yourself. That’s also hard for me because I’m kind of very much down the middle kind of Midwest guy. You know, like it’s like nothing’s amazing, nothing is terrible, I’m just like, nah, like right down the middle. And it’s like, but not really, we all have awesome things. So, I love that question.

    Why don’t reverse it, man, this should be your podcast. I love it. So, this is good. No, but thanks, man, for being a part of What’s Your “And”? This was really, really fun.

    Matt: Yeah. This was great. Thanks for having me.

    John: Everybody listening, if you want to see some pictures of Matt in action and connect with him on social media, be sure to go to whatsyourand.com. All the links are there.

    And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture.

    And don’t forget to read the book. So, thanks again for subscribing on Apple podcast or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.


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