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Eric Kamont [00:00:05]:
This is Eric Kamont, and when I’m not on the course getting dirty in the mud, I’m sitting here listening to What’s Your “And”? with John Garrett.

John Garrett [00:00:11]:
Welcome to episode 635 of What’s Your “And”?. This is John Garrett. And each Wednesday, I interview a professional who, just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and. Those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond the job title. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, a few other websites.

John Garrett [00:00:47]:
All the links are at what’s your hand.com. The book goes more in-depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to corporate culture. And I can’t say how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon and more importantly changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to

John Garrett [00:01:04]:
you, that’s right. This voice reading

John Garrett [00:01:06]:
the book, look for What’s Your Hand on Audible or wherever you get your audio books. And please don’t forget to hit subscribe to the podcast. You don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week, and this week is no different with my guest, Eric Kamont. He’s a director of strategic partnerships for the industrial metaverse at Microsoft, and now he’s with me here today. Eric, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?.

Eric Kamont [00:01:29]:
Mister John, thank you, sir. I’m very excited to be here. Thanks for the great intro.

John Garrett [00:01:33]:
This is gonna be awesome. We met at a conference a couple of months ago, got to hang out, and here we are. So this is gonna be great.

Eric Kamont [00:01:38]:
We not only well, it wasn’t just at the conference. We got to hang out for a couple hours. So it was great to, like, get to know you and get to meet you.

John Garrett [00:01:45]:
Yeah. I did, Owen. I have questions that I probably should’ve asked you then, but it might have been weird. So we’ll do them now for everyone to hear the answers to. Office house. Some rapid fire questions here. Favorite color? Blue. Blue.

John Garrett [00:01:57]:
Mine too. How about a least favorite color?

Eric Kamont [00:02:00]:
Yellow. I’m not a yellow guy.

John Garrett [00:02:02]:
Yellow. Yeah. It’s a little too bright, little too sunshiny. Yeah. Like, dial it down there, Skippy. Alright. And you’re in the south, so I gotta ask you, is tea or sweet tea?

Eric Kamont [00:02:11]:
Oh, man. You know, I used to be a sweet tea guy, but then, you know, everything in the South just goes right to barbecue. Like, if I can change the conversation from sweet tea or tea to barbecue, that’s typically where I go.

John Garrett [00:02:21]:
Okay. There you go. There you go. Just a glass of barbecue sauce. That’s perfect. Like it. Like, that’s it. No.

John Garrett [00:02:27]:
That’s hilarious. How about a favorite actor or an actress?

Eric Kamont [00:02:31]:
I’ve loved Ryan Reynolds since, like, he was, like, on 2 Guys or Girl at Pizza Place back in the nineties. Oh, yes. Very much, like and love the fact that he’s taken over and, you know, done great and with Rexit and the his gin company that he owns and stuff. Yeah. Like, I just love that personality.

John Garrett [00:02:47]:
Yeah. No. That’s awesome. What a and a good person too, like, just all around.

Eric Kamont [00:02:51]:
He seems that way. Like, he seems like a guy you could just, like, go grab a beer with and hang out, like, for sure.

John Garrett [00:02:55]:
Right. Yeah. Very real. This is a good one. Toilet paper roll over or under?

Eric Kamont [00:03:00]:
I’m a hardcore under guy.

John Garrett [00:03:02]:
Really? Okay. Yeah.

Eric Kamont [00:03:04]:
Like and my wife is a hardcore over person, and so we have the battles of who you know who changed it because that’s the over and under. But, yeah, now I’m a hardcore under guy.

John Garrett [00:03:14]:
That’s amazing. Okay. Alright. More oceans or mountains?

Eric Kamont [00:03:18]:
Oh, man. I like both. I’m more of a mountain guy now. I spent a lot of time growing up on the Jersey Shore when I was a kid. And so I spent a lot of time at the beach and didn’t get my fair share of mountains. So as I enter my second half of life, I like to spend more time in the mountains, which also gets into the I can run trails better in the mountains and hike and stuff. Whereas the ocean’s, you know, the ocean’s the ocean?

John Garrett [00:03:41]:
Eventually, you run into the water and there’s sharks there. So that’s Yeah. Like You

Eric Kamont [00:03:44]:
can get wet.

John Garrett [00:03:46]:
Right. Right. How about puzzles? Sudoku, crossword, jigsaw puzzle, Wordle? I don’t know. Whatever’s out there now.

Eric Kamont [00:03:53]:
I’m not a jigsaw or crossword person. I’m Sudoku, I was into I literally had never played Wordle until, like, this past weekend. My son was like, hey. Let’s play Wordle together. I was like, oh, this is weirdly addictive. And my wife is the jigsaw puzzle, like, queen. Like, that’s all she wants for Christmas. Like, get her puzzles.

Eric Kamont [00:04:10]:
She puzzles like, she’s hardcore into it. So I’m like, you have that, and I’ll do, like, brain teaser. I think those brain teaser math problem stuff, that that kind of stuff.

John Garrett [00:04:19]:
There you go. Okay. I like it. How about Star Wars or Star Trek?

Eric Kamont [00:04:24]:
Man, I knew this was coming. So original Star Wars, like, the original, you know, 4, 5, 6 episodes. And then I loved Star Trek Next Generation, so Captain Picard, and then the Star Trek reboots that they did with Chris Pine. So a little bit of both, but, like, not all the new Star Wars and not all and I really I just pissed off half an audience with the original Kirk Star Trek. I’m like, nope. I was all a Captain Picard kid growing up. So

John Garrett [00:04:49]:
No. Absolutely. I agree with all of what you just said. So there’s 2 of us that just pissed everybody off, so we’re good. How about your computer? More PC or Mac?

Eric Kamont [00:04:57]:
I mean, I mean, I I can’t even like, people give me a Mac, and I’m like, just get rid of this. I cannot stand. You know?

John Garrett [00:05:04]:
You have worked for Microsoft.

Eric Kamont [00:05:05]:
But I’m also a little biased just a tiny bit. And I did grow up on, like, Apples in school. Like, the first time I ever programmed was on an Apple 2gs. Like, when I was in middle school, I had a, you know, a Macintosh. I learned how to program in high school. So, like, I program on old school Apple Computers, but, yeah, PC. I mean, I’ve got 5 of them sitting in front of me.

John Garrett [00:05:26]:
Right. Right. There you go. A little bit of a problem, but, like, it’s all good. How about a favorite movie of all time? Oh my god, dude.

Eric Kamont [00:05:33]:
I have a series of movies because I’m a very

John Garrett [00:05:36]:
Okay. Or more than 1. I I don’t wanna hold you back.

Eric Kamont [00:05:38]:
No. I mean, like, I was a big fan of, like, movies that, like, are mind benders. Like, just, like, right now, like, I could watch Interstellar and Inception a 100 times. Like, I could watch those now, but I love some classics. Some people think I’m crazy. American Psycho is a hilariously funny like, I read the books by Wendy’s Dallas. I loved the movie. It’s like a TV show.

Eric Kamont [00:06:00]:
Those are just hilariously like, they’re dark but funny. Back to the future’s a great one. Like, I love high replay value movies, comedies like dodgeball that you can watch over and over again. Oh, yeah.

John Garrett [00:06:11]:
Caddy Shaft. Stuff like that.

Eric Kamont [00:06:12]:
Ghostbusters. You know? Something like that. Dumb and dub. Yeah. Like, I just love there’s, like, a myriad of those. But, again, I I watched Star Wars a 100 times, you know, kind of things. And so, again, I don’t have just one movie. Lots of great Yeah.

Eric Kamont [00:06:23]:
No. But I love that.

John Garrett [00:06:23]:
All those are great. It depends what mood you’re in, and here we go. I love it. That’s great. How about, more pens or pencils?

Eric Kamont [00:06:30]:
I love pens for the most part. I mean, it it’s and I have, like, a specific, like, waterproof, like, pen brand that I have that I keep. That’s yeah. Like, pens for sure.

John Garrett [00:06:40]:
Yeah. No. Okay. There you go. How about ice cream? I’m a huge junkie. In a cup or in a cone?

Eric Kamont [00:06:46]:
A cone would be the ultimate. Like, I’m out by choice. I want a cone, like, 2 or 3 scoops, little mix. Yeah. I could go with the

John Garrett [00:06:52]:
Nice. There you go. Yeah. I mean, live a little. Right? There you go. Are you more of an early bird or a night owl?

Eric Kamont [00:06:58]:
Night owl for sure. If I have to get up before 7, it’s like like, I operate well, like, at 10 o’clock. In the evening, not in the morning. Like, it’s just I can go hilarious. Like yeah. Like, I do well, like, in the evening. It’s actually pretty funny.

John Garrett [00:07:11]:
My wife peak at the end. Okay.

Eric Kamont [00:07:13]:
Yeah. She’s the opposite. Like, she’s a morning person all day long.

John Garrett [00:07:16]:
Right. I’ll see you at noon. There you go. How about a favorite number?

Eric Kamont [00:07:21]:
Well, this has become a new this is a new one. So I I love the number 4. I always tell this story, but and Gary v talks about this. Like, the odds of being a human on earth is, like, 1 in 400,000,000,000,000. Like, this is, like, the big thing. And so I I just that way, I just love it. And plus 4 is, like, a fun, like, square number. It’s divisible by 2.

Eric Kamont [00:07:38]:
We just gotta you know, it’s like the perfect number of people in a restaurant, in your car. Like, it’s just a fun, like, square number.

John Garrett [00:07:46]:
Yeah. It’s complete. Yeah. I like it.

Eric Kamont [00:07:49]:
Yeah. 5 seems to be too much, and 3 is not enough.

John Garrett [00:07:52]:
No. I like it. That’s good. I like it. How about a least favorite vegetable besides all of them?

Eric Kamont [00:08:01]:
Oh, no. I I like vegetables. Celery. If the celery vanished from Earth, I would not shed a tear at all, period. Goodbye.

John Garrett [00:08:09]:
Bye bye,

Eric Kamont [00:08:10]:
Celery. I don’t need you.

John Garrett [00:08:11]:
See you. There you go. That’s awesome. I love it. We got 2 more. Favorite adult beverage.

Eric Kamont [00:08:17]:
Adult oh, so we we can go alcoholic, I guess.

John Garrett [00:08:19]:
So Yeah. Really, whatever.

Eric Kamont [00:08:21]:
I’m a big coffee guy. I love coffee. And then if we’re going into the alcohol versions, I’m I love a gimlet on the occasion.

John Garrett [00:08:28]:
There you go. Last one. The favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Eric Kamont [00:08:32]:
I mean, the favorite thing I have right now is me. Like, I love my I like I love the the health that I’ve got, and I love the spot I’ve got in the universe. I’m very happy with it. I’ve got lots of possessions and toys, but, I mean, without me, it doesn’t go very far.

John Garrett [00:08:46]:
Yes. It’s fantastic.

Eric Kamont [00:08:48]:
And my family would be, like, a would be very much like a comparative thing. But

John Garrett [00:08:52]:
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, that answer goes without saying. But, yeah, that’s fantastic, man. That’s awesome. I love it, which leads perfectly into Spartan racing. And how did that get started? Because you don’t accidentally do one of those. So how how did you get into into that whole side of things?

Eric Kamont [00:09:09]:
So Spartan racing, it’s like most things in life. It’s like the good things are there’s usually a story, and there’s someone to blame for, like, dragging the bike helmet. Again, for people that are early on on the podcast who go, I what is Spartan racing? So obstacle course racing is a so Spartan is a brand of obstacle course racing. And so if you’ve heard of Tough Mudder or Savage Race or Spartan, there’s a number of those brands that are out there. And, essentially, it’s you go run-in the woods. There’s mud. You do obstacles. You traverse the obstacles.

Eric Kamont [00:09:37]:
You get done with the race, and, you know, there’s a beer and a medal waiting for you at the finish line, which essentially how they sell it to people. And so Spartan racing for me was, like, this thing that happened years later after I got fit. And so I grew up in a very loving family. We were pretty didn’t have a lot of money. But, like, you celebrated life with food. You know? Then a lot of cultures do this. Right? You’re like, everything’s a celebration. And particularly when you don’t have a lot of money, the easiest celebration is let’s go have a scoop of ice cream or let’s have a nice, you know, pasta dinner or something.

Eric Kamont [00:10:09]:
And so I grew up love, but it like, I just I was also overweight, very smart, was bullied a lot growing up. And so, you know, you kinda eat your emotions. And then I got to go into college weighing £315. I’m 65. So it didn’t carry poorly. I mean, I was a line I could have been a linebacker for the football team, but just health was not the thing that we focused on in our family. And I dropped 115 when I was in college through which is just I make the joke. I lost that weight, but I went down 10 inches in my waist, and I went down 2 shoe sizes because I lost so much weight.

John Garrett [00:10:48]:
So Holy cow. Okay.

Eric Kamont [00:10:50]:
People go you know, because things spread out with gravity. Like, people don’t connect these dots. So I went through from a size 15 shoe to a size 13, which is just funny, that I had to buy new shoes after I lost weight on top of all the clothes.

John Garrett [00:11:03]:
A whole new Eric.

Eric Kamont [00:11:04]:
Yeah. Which is very funny, you know, being in technology, Eric 2.0 showed up versus 1.0. And the weight like, so growing up, I mean, I’m a normal kid. Right? I was into video games. I was into sports, and I was into ninjas. And at some point, I was like, I couldn’t do a lot of sports because of my weight. I played soccer, but I was a goalkeeper because you didn’t have to run. Like, I played a setter in basketball because I could stand there, put my hand up and block the ball.

Eric Kamont [00:11:28]:
But at some point, you go, man, I really want to be a ninja turtle or, like, you know, like, I wanna put this to life. And so I the first thing I did after I lost weight and I was being fitness, I took a martial arts course. And I wasn’t I wanna be a ninja. I wanna learn martial arts. So I got into it, and it was awesome. It was I learned yeah. I got my black belt in it after 10 years, but I learned how to throw, how to fall, how to take a punch, how to spar, how to do weapons. I mean, all the stuff you would want, like, in martial arts.

John Garrett [00:11:57]:
Well, and also probably how to grow into this new body. I mean, you’re almost like an adolescent again.

Eric Kamont [00:12:01]:
But you’re just bouncing into stuff. Like, you you got all this energy you don’t know what to do with. Like, I was just pumped the whole time. And so you go, I wanna put this somewhere. And so then I spent time in the gym, and I was studying martial arts. And so years go by. I move. I get recruited to Microsoft.

Eric Kamont [00:12:18]:
And then I have some friends of mine that they were like, hey, man. Like, we wanna have you come do a Spartan Race with us. And I’m like, what is a Spartan Race? They’re like, there’s the mud. There’s the trail running. And I’m like, that sounds awful. I hate running. I hate being dirty. Like, this is the worst thing you could possibly why are you asking me this? They’re like, it’ll be fun.

Eric Kamont [00:12:37]:
There’s a beer in the middle at the end. I’m like, that doesn’t sound like fun. I’m like, how far is it? They’re like, like, 5 miles. I’m like, I hate all of you. Like, the most I had run consistently was like a mile or 2, and I hated all of that. Like, it’s fine. You can walk or power hike it. We’ll just come out and have fun with this.

Eric Kamont [00:12:54]:
I’m like, fine. So I go do this, and we have one here in Charlotte where I live. And it, like, it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my entire life. Like, obviously, losing weight was insanely more difficult, but, like, this single fitness experience was just difficult but invigorating. You’re like, oh, I did this and I didn’t die. Like, it took us however many hours, and it was ridiculous. It was so over the top for me. And so the pictures were big.

Eric Kamont [00:13:20]:
The smiles were humongous. We got our medals. We’re drinking our beer. It was all fine. And a few weeks go by, and my friends are like, hey. We wanna do another one. And I was like, okay. This sounds like, there’s a pattern here that’s getting established.

Eric Kamont [00:13:33]:
They’re like, well, we’re gonna do it in Asheville. I’m like, oh, Asheville’s fun in the summer. It’ll be cooler in the mountains. Like, it’s like 8 miles. Like, well, that’s only 3 more than we just did. How bad could it possibly be?

John Garrett [00:13:45]:
Right. It’s a downhill 3 miles since the I guess.

Eric Kamont [00:13:49]:
That became the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my whole life. And it was one of the races they use for the Spartan pros to compete. So it wasn’t just a normal race. It was like like the national level competition course. Yeah. So, you know, we got our butts handed to us, but we finished it. And I was, at this point, by the way, also doing, like, intermittent fasting. And I was like, oh, I’ll just take some water.

Eric Kamont [00:14:14]:
I’ll I’ll just go and fast into this race. And I remember getting to the end just, like, demolished. Just my lips were blue from, like, dehydration. Like, my wife thought I was gonna pass out. She’s like, why are you doing this? Like, this seems not right. This is amazing. Yeah. I’m like, I feel so alive.

Eric Kamont [00:14:33]:
And then we do a third one that was a longer and, apparently, if you do a short, a medium, and a long distance race, long, medium, like 15 miles, you get this thing called a trifecta in Spartan, which is like I don’t know. You you they count trifectas. How many of these triads did you do?

John Garrett [00:14:48]:
Yeah.

Eric Kamont [00:14:49]:
So we’re like, we gotta do that one. Well, okay. Fine. I guess we’re gonna and so then it just started this snowball effect of traveling, different courses, different events, meeting people. The community is just amazing. And then that’s 1 year. I get into the next year, and I do, like, 15 races instead of 3. And I went from a 5, roughly 8 mile in a 13, 14, 15 mile to then doing a 50 k, which is, like, 30 miles.

John Garrett [00:15:17]:
Holy cow.

Eric Kamont [00:15:18]:
And I was like, man, I could do 15 miles. I sure as hell can do 30 of them. Like, at some point, you’re just like you just start going, if I can do this, I can do this other thing.

John Garrett [00:15:28]:
Yeah. Well, you get the proof, and then you you prove it to yourself, like, oh, you can go further actually because I still had gas in the tank when I finished.

Eric Kamont [00:15:35]:
That’s exactly what it is. It’s going I mean, I don’t feel dead. I’m still alive. My blood’s still pumping. I still got energy. I could do this again if I had to. Like, somebody put a gun to my head and said, do this course again. You’re like, okay.

Eric Kamont [00:15:46]:
I could do this. And I was also turning 40 around the same time, and so I’m like, let’s see what I can do. Like, how far is the edge? Like, how close am I? Because people have this concept in their head where they’re like, everything they’re doing is so close to the edge that they’re gonna die. Like, oh my god. If I do this one thing, I’m like, my life is over. And then you realize when you do hard stuff that the edge is so far away from where you actually are. And so it helps put into perspective. Because you think you know you live in a box.

Eric Kamont [00:16:13]:
You just don’t know how far the edges are from where you’re standing. And so certain things, you know, when you live 40, 50, 60 hours a week in front of a computer like I was doing, love my job, love my company, but it’s very digital, very cerebral. And then to be out in the trees, in the course, in mother nature, doing hard stuff with a cool bunch of people, you’re like, this is a nice balance, man. And, like, we’re all pushing each other to do harder stuff. And so this past I mean, literally, 2 weeks ago, I did a 50 k Ultra. So I did one when you and I like, I was preparing for 1 around the

John Garrett [00:16:47]:
second time. I do remember that.

Eric Kamont [00:16:49]:
Yeah. And then I, on a whim, with a month’s prep, just did another one about 2 weeks ago, and that was my 85th race.

John Garrett [00:16:57]:
That’s awesome. Congratulations, man. That’s awesome. Man. Yeah. So cool. And and also to hear that it was, like, with coworkers, and so it’s not something that you had to hide or and if anything, they pulled it out of you.

Eric Kamont [00:17:08]:
That’s exactly what it was. Like, it was hiding, and and it went kicking and screaming. It didn’t wanna it was like trying to get your, you know, your toddler to go to bed. Like, they kinda just refused. And then finally, they submit, and they go, see you’re supposed to be in bed? Yeah. They kinda pulled something out of me that I don’t think I knew that was there. And I still thank these guys. I mean, like and I always make the joke.

Eric Kamont [00:17:26]:
I’m like, I would not be doing this crazy thing had it not been for them seeing that I had this opportunity or this potential.

John Garrett [00:17:33]:
No. I I love it so much. And and do you feel like I mean, and I have to believe this, that, you know, that mindset, that shift that you had, like, applies to work as well of what’s hard and what’s the barriers and all those things, and especially when, you know, playing in the tech space of what is possible, you know, type of thing. All of that has to apply.

Eric Kamont [00:17:52]:
Agreed. Yeah. And I think it’s so funny because sometimes like, I remember an interview at some point in my career. So I’ve had several jobs at Microsoft. And one of them was, what makes you think you can do this job? I’m like, well, I dropped a £115. I’ve run 100 of miles. I have but I was also Eagle Scout and Boy Scouts. I’ve led troops into the woods.

Eric Kamont [00:18:12]:
I volunteer with the y. Like, I go, I do things that people, like, literally think are impossible. You’re asking me to go do this project. I’m like, in the grand scheme of life, the difficulty measures are not the same. If I can do this, I can absolutely 100% $1,000,000 do this other thing you’re asking me to do. It’s that mindset shift where you go like, the things that you thought were at once impossible are possible. And And sometimes you need to be re like, you need, to be reminded. Because it’s one thing to be like, oh, in high school, I was a I did this track star thing.

Eric Kamont [00:18:46]:
I held the record for something, right, in college. But that doesn’t get you through your forties. That doesn’t get you through your fifties. That doesn’t get you through your career. It’s like you have to constantly prime that pump to sharpen that blade, sharpen the saw, right, from, Covey, right, who talks about sharpen the saw. You have to do it over and over again to remind yourself. And then, hopefully, your center of gravity, your orbit. People come in like I did to these other people.

Eric Kamont [00:19:09]:
I brought other people in, and then they get to experience the same thing, that mental fortitude that comes with that stuff.

John Garrett [00:19:15]:
No. I I love it so much because, you know, at no point in your education did they say, hey, go run-in the woods for 50 miles because it’ll make you better at your job, but it straight does. You know, these ands that people have make you better at just fully being activated human, but that also translates to doing better work. And, you know, the skill set that you have now is completely different than the skill set you had when you started at Microsoft, and a lot of that comes from the outside of work non resume building whatever type of stuff that people think. It’s so great to hear that, you know, from your side. And then there’s other people that you work with that would never run 50 miles in the woods, but they have a totally different end and a different skill set that you don’t.

Eric Kamont [00:19:59]:
I always think about this in life. Like, you know, you’re talking about how the president has a cabinet of professionals and he’s, like, you know, these advisers. And I always think, like, some of the most important decisions you’re gonna make in your life, you should have your, like, adviser panel for, typically your family or your spouse or whatever. But in work, we we build these teams, and you go, you don’t want the same people. And so if I’ve got someone on that team that has got the mental callus, right, or the mental sharpness that can just, hey. This product is gonna be 9 months of drudgery. Do you have the mental capacity to deal with that? Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Kamont [00:20:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m like, but do you? Do you have you been doing something that is mentally draining where you can come back day after day getting punched in the face? No. Okay. Cool. There’s nothing wrong with you, but we need that person. Or I need someone who’s creative. Yeah.

Eric Kamont [00:20:44]:
I’m creative. Yeah. But how well, I write muse not me. But I’m saying, like, you have someone out there who’s like, I do creative writing. I write music. I do art. Okay. Versus someone who goes, I don’t do those things.

Eric Kamont [00:20:56]:
You’re gonna go, hey, man. Maybe I wanna lead into the person who’s passionate about creativity. Or I you know, like, sculpt, you know, with wrought iron or something. Like, you just you try to find these people who have these passions. And it’s interesting. The people I find myself almost innately drawn to are the people that have this, like, weird mental endurance capability that do, like, oh, I did Ironman. I did marathon running. I did you know? Like, oh, okay.

Eric Kamont [00:21:22]:
You’re crazy like me. This is cool. We’re gonna be good friends. And, you know, the levels of crazy translate to work because you go, man, like, I can do hard shit, and it’s really what it turns into, and this is no harder than anything else I’ve ever done in my life. Therefore, I can do it.

John Garrett [00:21:36]:
And also just to hear how it translates to work and even the what’s your end message and how you’ve, like, since seeing me speak, you know, read the book and then ran with it at Microsoft, I’m like, this is incredible. Like, it’s so cool just to hear that, like, it gets traction immediately, and it’s unstoppable. Like, it just just gets everywhere. It means a lot to me personally that, you know, that it affected you that much that you wanted to share it and then to hear, oh, wow. It’s making a difference at a place like Microsoft.

Eric Kamont [00:22:06]:
It’s and again, I talk about how the universe sometimes just connects you with people that, you know, you like, you’re where you need to be when you need to be there kind of situation. So you and I got to do this little keynote thing for one of our fellow clients. And so you and I got to meet. I’m like, oh my god. This story is awesome. I was like, I’m so into this. We’re talking about the book. You know, you were very gracious with your time.

Eric Kamont [00:22:28]:
And then I’m reading this going, man, this really connects because I was flying a lot for work. Like, I I mean, at one point, I was spending a 100,000 miles a year domestically flying around at one point in my career. And so you’re always on, you know, wherever you’re maybe you’re 1st class, maybe you’re not, and you’re sitting next to somebody who’s in the same situation you are, And I make this joke. I’m like, hey. What do you do? And they’re like, I’m a, you know, CEO. Blah blah blah. Like, the conversation doesn’t go very far because you’re talking about jobs. And then I was like, I’ll be chipped.

Eric Kamont [00:22:57]:
I’m like and then I go, what are you into? And then that got, like, very, very much pushed through more than one time with people. They’re like, wait. What do you mean? I’m like, well, not like in a dirty way. I’m like, what are you into? Like, you do sports. Like, you know, I would have to clarify this.

John Garrett [00:23:10]:
Right. Exactly.

Eric Kamont [00:23:11]:
Of course. You know, socially awkward, Eric, is not connecting correctly reading these signals. So that just went over, like, as you can imagine. And then when I read your book, I’m like, oh, yeah. The word is and. You can just use a very simple conjunction.

John Garrett [00:23:25]:
Everyone knows what that word means, at least. Like Right?

Eric Kamont [00:23:28]:
And so, like, oh, and I’m into sport racing. I’m into martial arts. You know, I’m into volunteering. Like, what’s your end? Oh, thank you. Like, I’m into pottery. And then so then the conversation naturally goes. And I did this with a couple customers. I introduced myself at a keynote.

Eric Kamont [00:23:42]:
I was like, hi. My name is Eric Kavant. In my spare time, I’m really passionate about these things. And then you see eyes connect with you in the room. And I was like, okay. And then later, they come find you. Oh my god. That’s so cool.

Eric Kamont [00:23:53]:
I’m into doing triathlons and Ironman. I’m like, okay. So this has got legs. Like, I tested it a few times.

John Garrett [00:23:59]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Kamont [00:24:00]:
We had an off-site for the team I’m on a couple weeks ago, and I said, I wanna run the icebreaker, and I did this. And we had the teams break up. They networked, and we were able to connect. Like and the fact we had other people who came in, I said, hey. Let you know we’re doing this and thing. And so when they were talking and introducing themselves, they talked about what they were passionate about. Yes. And I was like, okay.

Eric Kamont [00:24:21]:
This landed really well, and I got a lot of positive feedback. So I’m going, okay. This is yeah. It’s either n equals 3 or 4 at this point on the data set.

John Garrett [00:24:29]:
Yes. There you go.

Eric Kamont [00:24:30]:
And then I volunteer with this youth in government program out of South Carolina, and we were just up at a camp this past weekend, literally, like, 3 days ago. We break into groups. These kids don’t necessarily know each other. And, typically, we do it, like, a name association. I’m Eric. You know, elephant Eric. Right? Something to do a mind association. I’m like, I’m throwing this out.

Eric Kamont [00:24:49]:
I’m like, your name is Eric, and tell me 3 things you’re passionate about in your life. And they’re like, oh, I’m into trout fishing. I’m into working out. I’m into volleyball. I’m into video games. Like and, again, I said, no offense. I’m not gonna remember your name because I’m just awful with names, but I go 2 years when you’ve grown up and more matured. I’m gonna remember, you’re the trout fisherman.

Eric Kamont [00:25:11]:
You’re the fly fisherman. You’re the one who did volleyball. And I was talking to our leaders, and they were like, dude, love it. That’s what we’re gonna do. That’s a great thing to add to the curriculum year after year now because it was the passions. Right? What did they just what do you do with life that is so important that I’m gonna remember that and the thing that changes a lot, your job title, what school you’re into, whatever. That’s gonna change and evolve, but your passions probably won’t.

John Garrett [00:25:35]:
I love that so much. And I mean, that’s it. That’s it exactly. I mean, you know, the eye of the hurricane is, you know, who you are, like, on a deeper soul level, like, who are you? And around you is, you know, your job title changes, you know, the company you work for changes, the technology that you use changes, like everything’s changing, but that solid ground where you can just get your footing and have your identity is just who else are you? And for some reason, that’s the first thing that we put outside or the first thing we put in you know, we hide or the first thing that we leave out, and then sadly, it goes dormant and eventually extinct, and we forget. I don’t even know what lights me up anymore. I completely forget. It’s really sad. You know? And so it’s cool to hear that, you know, these kids are just bursting with, you know, passions and even, you know, that at the Microsoft meeting, it just taps into this soul level for people, and they can’t unhear it.

John Garrett [00:26:32]:
You know? It it just we connect, and there’s smiles and laughter and and just that there’s some color now and some emotion at work, which is so important.

Eric Kamont [00:26:41]:
I thought what was so interesting too is one of the so I I tried to present it with, like, a 3 slide, like, what is it? Why should you care? Like, give them some examples. Right? And so I went through a list just in the last 3 or 4 months of the ands I had come across, and I had, like, listed them out. There was, like, 40 of them I can remember. And if you had asked me to remember 40 names, I’m like, you know, or the job titles. But I was like, oh, I I I know a guy that was an exterra world champion. I’ve met multiple Ironman competitors, you know, competitive martial artists. I mean, just somebody that literally quit their job and become a sommelier, like, to to do wine. Like, just, like, the passions all over the place.

Eric Kamont [00:27:19]:
And I’m just thinking, mad. Like, I love the idea of people talk about collecting memories, right, in their life. And I just love collecting these, like, these network of passions. Because it’s not like you’re like, oh, like, I need or I wanna know or I wanna get into this thing. I’m like, well, I have a huge network of these people that are into this stuff. I wanna get into music or I wanna get into sports or whatever.

John Garrett [00:27:41]:
I just, anyway

Eric Kamont [00:27:42]:
I think you’re onto something, John, that the courageousness of going, I am who I am. I don’t have to have a work me and a life me. I can just be me. And take it or leave it. Like, it’s not gonna change. If you don’t like it, that’s cool, but, like, here’s me.

John Garrett [00:27:56]:
Yeah. And and 99.9% of the time, they’re gonna take it. Like, in in our own heads, we beat ourselves up or say no one cares or no one’s no one needs to know this or whatever, and it and it’s not anything taboo or anything controversial. It’s just what lights you up on a soul level? Like, what’s that that inner 12 year old that wants to be a ninja? Like, what is that for you? You know? And what’s cool is you remember those people because you actually know the person, not the facade that we put up that is a job title or a whatever. It’s no. I got to see the deeper you, and that’s why you remember it. That’s why it’s so crucial for people to bring this out at work and for the people that work for you and around you. And and it’s the simple, like, who else are you? Like, what’s your hand? You know? And and some people too, they it isn’t my side hustle or it isn’t my job, so I don’t you know? No.

John Garrett [00:28:50]:
No. It shouldn’t be. Like, it’s you’re not good at it. Like, you know, you’re not a professional spartan researcher.

Eric Kamont [00:28:56]:
No no by any stretch of imagination. I just enjoy it. Correct. Yeah.

John Garrett [00:28:59]:
Yeah. I enjoy fill in the blank. Just I enjoy. I’m not you’re not doing it for time and you’re not doing it for, you know, you’re doing it for you.

Eric Kamont [00:29:07]:
I’m doing it for joy.

John Garrett [00:29:09]:
Yes. And that’s enough. There doesn’t need to be anything more. And so it’s so powerful to hear, like, how much it’s affected you, but also you’ve seen, yeah, now you’re n equals 5, 6, 7. You know, there’s been plenty of sample size now to be like, alright. This is legit.

Eric Kamont [00:29:23]:
Yeah. No. It’s exactly what it is. And and that’s how I am about stuff. It’s like I get into it. And if I eat it and I breathe it and I wear it, I’m like, alright. Like, I’m not shy about sharing it. And I’m also not shy about, like, going course cracking.

Eric Kamont [00:29:35]:
Like, I like, the joke, like, what am I into? Like, oh, well, that’s a bad choice of words, but, like, my hair, my passions. And I made the preface at work. I was like, make sure whatever your passions are are work appropriate. Like, I also like Right. And make sure they’re Y appropriate because if you, like, you know, like, I like to hunt small animals and murder them in their sleep, I’m like, probably not the thing to share.

John Garrett [00:29:54]:
Make that the 4th one.

Eric Kamont [00:29:55]:
Don’t lead with those.

John Garrett [00:29:56]:
Like, you know, do you have 3 other ones?

Eric Kamont [00:29:57]:
Yeah. Like, lead with the 3 appropriate ones that we wanna share at this moment. And then, you know, again, people laugh, they joke, and all kinda land. So it it was just cool. But I I think what was funny about it, and I get I get testament to you, is this, like, you took this basic concept. And, again, like, sometimes it doesn’t have to overcomplicate the universe. You’re like, and and, like, I I joked because I’ve I’ve been trying to do it for so many years going, how do I connect with these people, with people in general, about this thing that and, again, I I was just at a loss for the words, and you did a great job of explaining it on a very simple term. So, again, thanks for what you’ve done, John.

Eric Kamont [00:30:32]:
It’s amazing.

John Garrett [00:30:33]:
No. I appreciate it. And that means so much, and it’s also encouraging me to be, okay. Like, go bigger. Don’t hold back, you know, type of thing. And, so do you have any words of encouragement to people listening that maybe have an and that they feel like no one cares about at work? Or it’s not what I get paid to do, so why share it?

Eric Kamont [00:30:50]:
I think well, first off, a culture at work has to recognize that the individual is important. And, again, there’s plenty of companies out there that have toxic culture. Like, let’s be honest. That happens. And so, you know, the question is is and, again, job market’s crazy. So I’m not saying, like, go out of your way and then get fired for it because you’re ostracizing your employees. But I do think we can be change agents at our companies and sometimes finding people so maybe you don’t just jump into, I’m into taxidermy. Right? Weird thing that you might be into.

Eric Kamont [00:31:20]:
But you might be like, hey. I’m in can we get a runner’s club? I get a very basic or I I’m in the Peloton. Anybody else in the Peloton? Oh, yeah. Cool. Can we all get a little group ride together? Right? You can kinda start your path. Microsoft generally, at least the groups I’ve been in, have a little bit more, thankfully, progressive. Like, they they they like to promote, like, the the your passions in life in general. Right? So it’s kind of an easier thing.

Eric Kamont [00:31:42]:
Some companies might not have that. But I do think there are plenty of opportunities even outside of work, you know, churches and PTAs. I mean, I coach my kids’ soccer team, and I got to know the other dad coaches because we asked about, like, what what else are you passionate about? Oh, I’m into this. I’m into this. I’m like, oh my god. Like, so am I. Let’s connect. Like, it doesn’t just have to be this thing we’re standing around doing, and so it doesn’t have to be work.

Eric Kamont [00:32:05]:
But my suspicion is if you’re passionate about something in a very smiley kind of way, I think it’s magnetic. You’re gonna draw people to you. And even if it’s a mundane thing like, people think, like like, crochet I’m into crocheting or I, like, I do sculpting or I like to collect stamps. Like, I don’t know, man. There’s probably somebody very likely out there that is has a similar passion to you. And, again, like, where I work, I always make this joke. Like, we’re a bunch of nerds. I wave that nerd flag way high.

Eric Kamont [00:32:33]:
Like, it’s okay. I got a nerd flag. Like, let’s just you got these star questions, Star Wars questions. I’m like, hell yeah, bro. Let’s go. It’s okay to be who you are. I mean, if nobody likes it, too bad.

John Garrett [00:32:44]:
One time I was speaking at a, a pretty large organization and I asked the audience, I was like, who thinks they have the most boring end? Just curious. Who thinks there’s and a lady raises her hand and I go, what’s your hand? And she said, genealogy, researching her family history. And right as soon as she says it, a lady on the other side of the room yells out, that’s not boring. I do it too. And come to find out, they sat, like, 5 cubicles away from each other.

Eric Kamont [00:33:08]:
No way.

John Garrett [00:33:08]:
They’ve been working next to each other for a long and I said, oh my god. This is so great. I hope deep down, like, in the 1600, you guys are first cousins. Like, I seriously hope that would be amazing. Like, that would be my make a wish, like, right there. It’s just like but you don’t share it and you don’t know, but there’s someone else that loves to do you know, even if it’s not the exact same thing, I just love to be around fully activated humans. The energy and the passion and and that emotion and, like, man, you’re alive. This is awesome.

John Garrett [00:33:35]:
Tell me about it.

Eric Kamont [00:33:36]:
I mean, you get one shot at this. Like, you’re gonna sit around, and we we have plenty of things to complain about. There is not an absence of things to complain about, worry about, be anxious about, to be concerned about in life. It’s almost like having joy in your life or having a passion is somehow you’re not being socially involved or you’re not aware or you’re not fixing problem. Like, you can be both. So you can be there’s a paradox. You can be happy and sad at the

John Garrett [00:34:00]:
exact same time. I don’t

Eric Kamont [00:34:03]:
know, man. I love people watching people smile. Like, you get a twinkle in their eye, and, again, I come back to kids. Like, I have 2 boys. You know, you wanna try to give them access to things that are gonna light them up. So you try lots of things hoping something will stick. And at some point, you go, oh, see, they were they’re talking about it. They’re into it.

Eric Kamont [00:34:20]:
They’re wearing the clothes. There’s a twinkle that. I’m like, I feel like that’s a passion of theirs that we’re fostering, or this other thing they’re that’s okay. Like, it doesn’t have to not everything has to be a passion either. Anyway, yeah, if I work with a bunch of people that, like, when they went home on the weekends, found smiles and came back to work energized, dude, that’s cold.

John Garrett [00:34:39]:
Yeah. And imagine if organizations made sure that you had the space and even encouraged and fostered that happening. Like, that’s it. It’s like, you know, are you living your best life? And if you are, then you’re gonna do your best work. And we we always stop short of, or organizations historically have, on are you doing your best work? Are you doing work? And it’s like, no. Go a step further, and by going a step further, you’ll have to pass go. You’ll have to collect $200. You’ll you’ll be more profitable.

John Garrett [00:35:09]:
People will stay and and you’ll retain talent, you’ll attract new talent, like, everything good will happen if you just make sure that, hey, are you living your best life? You know? And how can we help make sure that happens? Because then everything else is gonna fall into place. So awesome, man. Well, this has been so great. I feel like since I rudely peppered you with questions at the beginning, it’s only fair that we turn the tables, make this the Eric Kamont podcast. Thanks for having me on, man. So, yeah, what do you got for me?

Eric Kamont [00:35:36]:
Well, I mean, I guess the obvious question for people listening. So what are your 3 passions That’s probably a toss-up.

John Garrett [00:35:41]:
Yeah. The work appropriate ones or just any no. I’m just teasing. I’m just teasing.

Eric Kamont [00:35:45]:
It’s your podcast, brother.

John Garrett [00:35:46]:
It’s your podcast. You forgot already. Come on. College football, huge college football fan. Easily.

Eric Kamont [00:35:53]:
Any team or all the teams?

John Garrett [00:35:54]:
Oh, I went to Notre Dame, so definitely that team, but all of college football.

Eric Kamont [00:35:59]:
So they’re is that big ten? Is that what they’re in?

John Garrett [00:36:01]:
Oh, no. They’re independent.

Eric Kamont [00:36:03]:
Independent. Sorry. This is where I’m like, I’m over by No.

John Garrett [00:36:05]:
It’s all good. Everybody everybody’s angry about why Notre Dame doesn’t join a conference, and all the other teams used to not be in conferences, and then they all gave up. And so Notre Dame’s the only one left that isn’t in a conference, and everyone’s angry about it. But why should we be and no one has an answer? Well, because Carl at the end of the bar says and I’m like, well, that’s not a reason, so, like,

Eric Kamont [00:36:29]:
whatever. Carl.

John Garrett [00:36:30]:
Actually, that makes me wanna not join a conference even more. So, yeah, college football, I would say going to concerts. I love music and concerts and that passion and energy that I just love going to concerts.

Eric Kamont [00:36:41]:
Any genre? What kind of genres are you into?

John Garrett [00:36:43]:
I mean, usually, like, alternative rock.

Eric Kamont [00:36:45]:
Like, early nineties alternative rock or modern day are we gonna go better than Ezra? And

John Garrett [00:36:49]:
Oh, I mean, I would do that, but, you know, like, Blink or The Killers or The Main is awesome too. I mean, just like yeah. A lot of just yeah. That sorta kinda upbeat kinda alternative rock.

Eric Kamont [00:37:03]:
I love it. I mean, like, I like I’ve seen Linkin Park and Fuel and all those guys concert.

John Garrett [00:37:07]:
Oh, yeah. That I mean, Metallica was my first two concerts. So, yeah, I mean, I can go that as well. And then yeah. I I guess I don’t know. I mean, I play the piano, and I also love ice cream.

Eric Kamont [00:37:17]:
Those are oddly joint not eating ice cream while you play the piano?

John Garrett [00:37:21]:
I wish I could, but, man, it’s no. I would definitely have to have a cone because then I could just do, like, the melody with the right hand and then eat eat the cone. Well, when I was a kid, grew up playing, and then we moved when I was in 6th grade, and the new music teacher wanted to start having you know, I was playing the theme song for Cheers and Pink Panther and, like, cool fun music. And then all of a sudden, the new music teacher wanted me to start playing classical. And I was like, No. No. I’m not doing that. No.

John Garrett [00:37:54]:
And so I quit. And then I was in the marching band at Notre Dame and I did music, but I stepped away from piano for a while and then got back into it. And then when my dad passed away, I got the piano that we had grown up with that he had gotten when he was, like, 18 or 19. So now I have that piano and so it’s just and there’s the Internet. So I can go find music of whatever song I feel like playing And so ironically enough, some of them are classical. And then I can print the music and then go play the song. So, it’s fun to do that. And I’m not performing in front of anyone or, you know, anything like that, but it’s just fun to noodle around on and play and just get better.

John Garrett [00:38:31]:
You know? And it’s a brain body thing also. Yeah. So that’s a fun one too.

Eric Kamont [00:38:37]:
That’s awesome. I mean, the piano is, a stellar. I I always make the joke. I I can carry rhythm in a bucket. It’s about as much as that amount as I can go. My wife played, and my boys are, like my my oldest is playing guitar. My youngest is playing drums. So we’re trying to get into a band.

Eric Kamont [00:38:52]:
Like like, hey, guys. Like, you guys should, like, train together. This would be awesome. So maybe a second question for you. So you said your dad passed. How long ago was that?

John Garrett [00:39:00]:
Yeah. That was, July of 2021.

Eric Kamont [00:39:03]:
Oh, wow, dude. That’s, like, still pretty raw.

John Garrett [00:39:05]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know Is

Eric Kamont [00:39:07]:
your mom still here?

John Garrett [00:39:08]:
Yeah. Mom is still here.

Eric Kamont [00:39:09]:
That’s great.

John Garrett [00:39:10]:
Yeah. And, we all live in Colorado. So Oh, everybody’s close. Yeah. So within an hour and a half of each other, I guess. Yeah. My brother and his family as well.

Eric Kamont [00:39:19]:
And then maybe my second question, this is a hard one. So, like, I lost my dad, oh my god, 2003. So we were super close. So so, when I write here about, like, the loss of a parent, the question I always love to go is, what did you celebrate about them? Because we always talk about loss to be a really hard thing, but I always love to know, like, what was the awesomest thing about them when they were here? And so I love to kind of try to keep that mythology alive.

John Garrett [00:39:39]:
Your podcast is way deeper than mine.

Eric Kamont [00:39:42]:
Sorry.

John Garrett [00:39:42]:
Well no. No. Don’t apologize at all. That’s a great question. So, like, growing up, my dad and I often butted heads. And, I mean, he was in the military. We grew up moving a lot and all this. So but he wasn’t very militaristic, which was looking back on it, he showed me what it was like to live with ants.

John Garrett [00:40:01]:
I mean, he loved sailing. He liked canoeing. Later in life, he would paint. He would play, like, the dulcimer.

Eric Kamont [00:40:09]:
Oh my god. The hammered dulcimer?

John Garrett [00:40:11]:
Yeah. Like, a lap thing, like, in West Virginia type of and he wasn’t good at any of these things, but he just enjoyed them. I mean, there were so many times on the sailboat where, like, we would either almost tip or run aground or something. And, you know, when you’re a kid, you’re like, man, this is the dumbest thing ever, like, whatever. But he just loved it. He just loved it, and I’m out there, and I’m learning, and I’m alive. And so he taught me what it was like to live. He didn’t talk about the Jets or the, you know, any of the military stuff or any of the work related anything.

John Garrett [00:40:41]:
We never talked about it at all ever. You know, it was always all these other things that he was just passionate about outside of work. Oh, he learned how to scuba when we lived in Arkansas. I was born in Arkansas. In in, like, a lake. Like, who scuba’s in a lake? Like, you gotta really want a scuba. Like, I’ve scuba’d twice and they were both in Hawaii or once was in Bermuda, I guess. Because, yeah, that’s where you scuba.

John Garrett [00:41:02]:
You’re not in a lake in, like, a quarry in Arkansas. Like, what? Like yeah. And so anyway but later in life, a little bit of Parkinson’s dementia and stuff, he really loosened up and he was, like, super fun and we got really close the last couple years, and helped, like, caring for him and all that. Yeah. And just got to see, like, the human side of him and and looking back on it, like, I wish he was around now, but for me to talk more of, like, these deeper spiritual things that I feel like he felt or was thinking, but that at that time, you couldn’t talk about or there wasn’t the resources to be able to explore or go deeper on. But I would say, if I answered your question, I’m not even sure, but, yeah, all of that.

Eric Kamont [00:41:43]:
That’s so awesome. I just I feel like sometimes when we you know, like, loss is, like, a hard thing to talk about because it is hard. But people thought, like, they had to celebrate successes, but they don’t know how to, like, celebrate loss. And so I always try to flip the script when people go, you know, like, they talk about how sad it is. I’m like, what what did you celebrate? What was so awesome about them so we can remember them? Like, that’s like Yeah. Because sometimes they’re you know, our parents are buttheads. We get that. But, also, I’m like like, you talk about the scuba in Arkansas.

Eric Kamont [00:42:08]:
I’m like, that’s funny. Like, I’m laughing.

John Garrett [00:42:09]:
Oh, it’s hilarious.

Eric Kamont [00:42:10]:
It’s hilarious.

John Garrett [00:42:11]:
No. It’s it’s so many funny stories about my dad, especially, like, later in life. Like, just unbelievable.

Eric Kamont [00:42:15]:
You said that the Parkinson’s loosened him up. That’s pretty funny, actually.

John Garrett [00:42:18]:
Well, I mean, well, the dementia side of it.

Eric Kamont [00:42:20]:
No. I get it. Like, I totally, a 100% get it.

John Garrett [00:42:22]:
And all of a sudden, you know, he just yeah. It’s very funny. Like, you know, it was just yeah, it was great. You know, it was just got to see, like, the real him, you know, come through.

Eric Kamont [00:42:31]:
His passions came through, which I guess I mean, we gotta thank him for partly inspiring the and conversation here.

John Garrett [00:42:37]:
Absolutely. I mean, subconsciously, he showed me what it meant to do this, and then I was able to take it accidentally. And then I that’s how I was living my life, and then I was able to, like, put words to it and put a structure to it in a phrase of, you know, just what’s your aunt. You know? So now you don’t get arrested on airplanes anymore for harassing the person sitting next to you, and everybody wins. Like, see?

Eric Kamont [00:42:57]:
Everybody wins.

John Garrett [00:42:58]:
The world is a better place.

Eric Kamont [00:42:59]:
Like Absolutely, dude. Congratulations. You’re solving, you know, humanity’s woes one book at a time. Real problems. That’s right.

John Garrett [00:43:06]:
But no. But thank you so much, Eric, for being a part of What’s Your Hand and for running with this, man. It it just means so much. So thank you.

Eric Kamont [00:43:12]:
Thank you, John. Seriously, for the book, for the time, for the one on one conversations we had. It it’s a blessing to know you, John. So thanks.

John Garrett [00:43:22]:
And everybody listening, if you like to see some pictures of Eric out on the trails or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to what’s your and dot com. All the links are there. And while you’re on the page, please click that big button, do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture. And don’t forget to read the book. So thanks again for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends, so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread. That who you are is so much more than what you do.