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Ben Curtis [00:00:05]:
Hey, this is Ben Curtis and when I’m not building genuine connection with other people, I’m listening to John Garrett on What’s Your “And”?.

John Garrett [00:00:12]:
Welcome to episode 677 of What’s Your “And”?. This is John Garrett and each Wednesday I interview a professional who just like me, is known for a hobby or a passion or an interest outside of work. And to put it another way, it’s encouraging people to find their and those things above and beyond your technical skills, the things that actually differentiate you when you’re at work. It’s the answer to the question of who else are you beyond the job title. And if you like what the show’s about, be sure to check out the award winning book. It’s on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble Bookshop, a few other websites. All the links are at www.whatsyourand.com and it was just featured in Forbes, so I promise it’s good.

John Garrett [00:00:52]:
It was listed as one of the top people-centric leadership books that you should read. And it goes more in depth with the research behind why these outside of work passions are so crucial to your corporate culture. And I can’t how much it means that everyone’s reading it and writing such great reviews on Amazon. Thank you so much for those and more importantly, changing the cultures where they work because of it. And if you want me to read it to you, that’s right, this voice, reading the book, look for what’s yous and on Audible or wherever you get your audiobooks. And please don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast. You don’t miss any of the future episodes. I love sharing such interesting stories each and every week and this week is no different with my guest, Ben Curtis.

John Garrett [00:01:27]:
He’s the president and co founder of Good Measure in Knoxville, Tennessee and now he’s with me here today. Ben, thanks so much for taking time to be with me on What’s Your “And”?!

Ben Curtis [00:01:36]:
Great to chat with you, John.

John Garrett [00:01:37]:
Yeah, this is going to be so much fun. I’m looking forward to it. But I’ve got 17 rapid fire questions. Get to know Ben out of the gate here. So you buckled in?

Ben Curtis [00:01:47]:
Let’s do it, man.

John Garrett [00:01:48]:
All right. Do you have a favorite color?

Ben Curtis [00:01:51]:
Green.

John Garrett [00:01:52]:
Green. Solid. Okay, how about a least favorite color?

Ben Curtis [00:01:55]:
Yeah, gray like the winter clouds. When we’ve got three months of winter and there’s no sun, it’s soul sucking. So no, gray it is.

John Garrett [00:02:05]:
It’s. That’s, that’s brutal. That really is brutal. How about your first concert? I love going to concerts.

Ben Curtis [00:02:10]:
So yeah, it was an audio adrenaline concert with my dad that I have no memory of, but brought me as a little boy. And there’s a picture of it.

John Garrett [00:02:21]:
So it happened even though it was blanked out. Okay, how about a favorite actor or an actress?

Ben Curtis [00:02:28]:
Kind of out of my, out of my realm here, but my wife would say Emily Blunt.

John Garrett [00:02:33]:
Okay.

Ben Curtis [00:02:34]:
Everything she’s in I like. So apparently those movies.

John Garrett [00:02:38]:
Well, there you go. That’s. That’s not a bad answer at all. I like it. All right, how about toilet paper roll? You go over or under?

Ben Curtis [00:02:44]:
Yeah, I think there are more important hills to die on in the world. But definitely over. Definitely over.

John Garrett [00:02:51]:
But definitely. It’s. Yeah, it’s important, but I’m not going to fight you on it. But. Right, right. There you go. How about since you’re in Tennessee there, you got tea or sweet tea?

Ben Curtis [00:03:03]:
You know, tea is a little more pure, but you can’t be in the south and not be a sweet tea guy.

John Garrett [00:03:08]:
Okay. All right. And technically I guess that’s tea, right? It’s tea or unsweet tea, I guess is how I should have asked the question. My apologies. How about a Star wars or Star Trek?

Ben Curtis [00:03:24]:
Yeah, I’d say Star wars mostly because that’s what I’ve seen. Never even seen any of the Star Trek. A lot of folks going to get riled up about that.

John Garrett [00:03:32]:
You know what, they can. It’s fine. It’s all good. How about your computer, PC or a Mac?

Ben Curtis [00:03:38]:
Yeah, I was never, never a Mac guy. Always PC. Historically, but once starting up the firm, I have been Mac all the way and don’t go back now.

John Garrett [00:03:46]:
Wow. Okay. All right, there you go. How about a favorite animal? Any animal at all?

Ben Curtis [00:03:52]:
Just took my kids to the zoo last week and saw my favorite animal. The tiger has been my favorite since I was a two year old boy. Tigers are just beautiful.

John Garrett [00:04:02]:
That’s a solid answer. Yeah. Plus they’re pretty. They’re pretty fantastic. So. Yeah, that’s cool. All right, how about jeans or khakis?

Ben Curtis [00:04:10]:
Jeans, if we can’t wear basketball shorts to begin with.

John Garrett [00:04:14]:
Okay, then I think basketball shorts counts as the answer. At least you didn’t say jeans cut off, because I’m sure. Oh, that’s.

Ben Curtis [00:04:22]:
It’s not the 90s, right?

John Garrett [00:04:24]:
That’s a hill I’ll die on, that’s for sure. 1. How about ice cream? You go in a cup or in a cone.

Ben Curtis [00:04:32]:
Yeah, cone is the way to go when you don’t want to make a fool of yourself. But man, if you’re. If you’re okay with getting messy. A cone is pretty unique and special. Love it in a cone.

John Garrett [00:04:41]:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. How about a favorite animated character? Usually it’s Disney, but any cartoon, any animated outtake.

Ben Curtis [00:04:49]:
I think this one, it’s just what I go with. What do the kids watch? And they’re all into Moana these days, so Moana is the one.

John Garrett [00:04:55]:
All right. There you go. I thought you were gonna say Emily Blunt again. I was gonna say. Wait a minute.

Ben Curtis [00:05:00]:
That’s exact. Oh, man.

John Garrett [00:05:04]:
There you go. How about a balance sheet or income statement?

Ben Curtis [00:05:08]:
Balance sheets are where the bodies lie, so. Balance sheet.

John Garrett [00:05:12]:
Oh, okay. Yeah. Some people don’t want to look, so there you go. Fair enough, right? You’re like, bring it on. Do you have a favorite number?

Ben Curtis [00:05:19]:
Yeah, it’s always been 11. It’s the day of my birth in the month. It’s what I wore in my mediocre years of sports when I was a kid. So 11.

John Garrett [00:05:27]:
There you go. No, that’s a great number. Absolutely. A favorite movie, any movie of all time.

Ben Curtis [00:05:33]:
Drumline, Nick Cannon, 2002 as a Michigan slash, Tennessee boy who doesn’t have much music skill. Drumline brought me to another world. Always loved that movie.

John Garrett [00:05:43]:
Yeah, that’s a great movie. That’s awesome. There you go. In the last one. The favorite thing you have or the favorite thing you own?

Ben Curtis [00:05:50]:
Yeah, I’ve loved Silly as it is. Loved my AirPods for the last, like, four years one, because they just haven’t died. But also genuine, immediate connection to any device that I’m using. As I mentioned, I’m a Big Mac guy, Apple guy now, so very thankful for my AirPods.

John Garrett [00:06:07]:
That’s great. That’s totally counts, man. Sometimes it’s the little things, like, pun intended. So there you go. That’s awesome. All right, so let’s talk creating connection. And, like, is this a thing that’s always been a part of your life or something that you’ve gotten into more later on?

Ben Curtis [00:06:25]:
Yeah, I think the older I get and know myself, know what I’m like internally, I think I’d go back and say, probably always been wired this way, this genuine knowledge of another human and how you tick and how you work. But I think probably the last 10 to 15 years is when it’s been something I could articulate more clearly. Like, hey, I derive joy, as weird as that sounds, out of knowing another person and what’s their heart like and what do you enjoy and why do you tick the way you tick? So I do think it’s gone back to, you know, since I was a kid.

John Garrett [00:06:57]:
No, I mean, absolutely. And it’s interesting how it’s been a part of you in your DNA, but because it is, you don’t always realize it till later in life when you come across other instances or other people that are wired differently. And then it’s, oh, wait, okay. This is a thing for me, and I’m able to put words to it. Yeah, I would imagine it gets a little more powerful that way more recently than before.

Ben Curtis [00:07:23]:
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think the more you. You get some gray hair in life or you start losing your hair in life, you know, you see the way the world works. You see the way people work, I think also naturally, I’m just not the most introspective person. It requires a lot of work for me to do that within myself. So to tease out why do I think the way I think, why do I operate the way I operate. So I think I’m naturally drawn to want to do that with other people because it’s so difficult for me to do by myself, for myself on my own.

Ben Curtis [00:07:52]:
I think lots of other folks are wired very differently. You can get lost in morbid introspection for hours at a time, you know, but I want to do that for the people. So I think the more I’ve grown to know myself, the more I’ve enjoyed. Hey, this is actually neat for me to do with other people and for other people.

John Garrett [00:08:08]:
Yeah, well, I mean, that’s. That’s an excellent point of, you know, hey, I. I don’t want to do it for me as much, so I want to do it for you. Because then if we’re doing it for you, then we’re not doing it for me, and then everybody’s happy. Right? That’s awesome. I know. I mean, fair enough. And I mean, is this something that you just naturally came about or did someone point it out to you that, like, hey, you seem to, you know, be really interested in a lot of people and, you know, want to create this genuine connection with others?

Ben Curtis [00:08:34]:
I think much of it was just, you know, experientially, the more I’ve lived life, the more I’ve come across other people. You learn yourself, right? Like, you learn, you learn what’s life giving you, learn what brings joy to you and what brings joy to other people. But I do think there is a deep, fundamental way that, that folks are desired to where maybe some more than others, but there’s life when there’s genuine connection with other people. And so I think the more life I’ve experienced. The more types of folks I’ve interacted with, the more I’ve seen, you know, the more I’ve seen people live and die and suffer and rejoice in, like, all these different things that, that are part of the normal human experience. The more I see that, I think the more I see just anecdotally and experientially, I think I experience the best that life has to offer when it’s done in community with other people. So community is a really potentially overblown word these days. Finding your tribe, finding your community, you know, you, you can, you can get cynical about this when you think about this concept.

Ben Curtis [00:09:38]:
But I think at a fundamental level, I’ve just. As more life has been lived, I see, you know, I’ve got a specific worldview where important human connection is part of how we get the most joy out of life. So there’s, there’s other, there’s things behind that, but I think that’s just grown over time.

John Garrett [00:09:55]:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean this, this important human connection, sadly, traditionally or stereotypically has happened outside of work, you know, and then at work that doesn’t happen. You know, there’s. There’s work to be done. There’s, you know, all this. And so I guess how does that spill over into, you know, into your career now? I mean, especially at good measure, but even earlier on in your career?

Ben Curtis [00:10:19]:
Yeah, definitely. I think that I’ve never been the sharpest tool in the shed, but one thing I’ve been able to do, connect well with other folks and enjoy team aspects and like working together and pulling together as a team. And so, you know, I was working at a public accounting firm and was just a grunt. I’m a, I’m a staff. I’m a senior staff. I’m an intern before that, you know, But I, I think seeing, man, we’re able to, we really are able to. And I was on an audit side, so I’m. I’m operating as a team with other folks all the time and seeing like, we go farther, faster.

Ben Curtis [00:10:55]:
Such an overused phrase. I think there’s a lot of truth behind it. You go farther, right?

John Garrett [00:10:58]:
Yeah, no, absolutely.

Ben Curtis [00:10:59]:
So then starting Good Measure accounting services firm in 2021, seeing that in a much more tangible way as we build clients and we’ve built a team, you know what I mean? Where what we’re doing is like, hey, we want to leverage tech and systems and AI and all this stuff, but it’s in service of relationship. It’s in service of connection with other People, So team members who are going to be on our team, like they’re going to buy into that perspective and worldview, you know, or they’re not going to want to work with us. And clients for the most part are going to buy into that or they’re not going to want to work with us. And so we’ve seen this play out pretty significantly in vocation over the last four to five years in a way where it’s like we really can, we people, we can craft a vocation as much as we have the ability to that checks boxes like this. And so for me it’s been checking the box of how do we give the best, how do we do the best, how to provide quality, all that stuff. But it’s always in the context of and couched in relationship and human connection. And there’s real people behind the screen, there’s real people behind the dollars. And so being able to run my own firm, I think has been provided more opportunity to lean into that in ways that are, that are trickier when I’m in traditional public accounting, for example.

Ben Curtis [00:12:14]:
So I think the last couple years there’s been significant opportunity to see this marriage of this concept that can happen outside of vocation. You’re right. But hey, how do we bring this into the workforce, you know?

John Garrett [00:12:26]:
No, I mean, I love it because I mean, that’s all the work that I do is, you know, it happens so much easier outside even, even when you’re with work people at a happy hour or, you know, whatever it is an outside of the office thing. All of a sudden, like people’s personalities come out and you know, their humanness comes out from behind the job title and, and it’s like, oh, wow, where’s that person been for the last six months? Because that’s pretty cool. You should bring that version of you to work next time because I don’t know what the hell you’ve been doing, but this is annoying, you know, type of thing. And so I love that because, you know, the more that we can, can bring the human to the work, and especially with AI and tech and all these things, I love how you said that, that it’s always in service to the humans that are doing the work. And I feel like the more tech, the more AI, the more we have to intentionally be human with it, because if not, then we’re just going to lose it altogether.

Ben Curtis [00:13:22]:
Well, I think the more that stands out also like the more tech, more AI, the more systems, well, therefore the more genuine human interaction, genuine care that actually Stands out more and more. I think it becomes more powerful. It’s perceived as more genuine, more legitimate, you know, so there’s actually opportunity. As we read AI generated LinkedIn posts, thousands and thousands a day, it’s like, wow, the real person that communicates a real genuine thought that actually stands out more now, you know, And I think that’s just going to become more and more true as months and years go by.

John Garrett [00:13:53]:
Yeah, no, it’s absolutely true. And is this something that you’re open about and intentional with, or is it just something that just kind of operates behind the scenes and it’s just how we do things, or is it something that you share openly with, you know, co workers and clients?

Ben Curtis [00:14:08]:
Yeah, it’s a good question. I’d say it’s becoming more and more open as more years go by, as I want to, I think, in a helpful way, craft a specific presentation of myself and, you know, this presentation of myself. At the same time, I want to be very genuine. And so it’s a genuinely crafted presentation. But as more time goes by, as more years go by, I think I’m seeing more and more there’s nature and nurture, both, if you want to use that terminology. So there’s some degree to where, like, I am inherently wired. I got three young kids at home, you know, it’s like I can tell some of my kids are not wired in similar ways as I am, and some of them are. So I do think there’s an element where I’m naturally inclined to want to know, John, John, who are you, man? Like, how do you work? What’s going on in that heart of yours? You know, like, I’m naturally inclined to do that, but I’d also say it’s something where I am leaning into it intentionally and specifically.

Ben Curtis [00:14:58]:
So how are we doing that at Good Measure? We have a pretty dang robust and I’d like to say curtain pulled back type of interview. We bring people on the team. So what we want is like, that’s the way we’re interacting with our clients. You know, we’re pretty dang relational with them. We may not know their kids, birthdays, but we might. And we may not know, you know, everything going on with their team members, families, but we also might. So we’ve got this pretty deep relationship. We want to have team members on the team who are going to check that box.

Ben Curtis [00:15:27]:
So I think I’ve just seen the more and more as we build a culture at Good Measure, right? People that fit the culture and buy into it themselves. It really matters. And so it’s my job, then it’s actually fair to other people when we’re trying to bring them on board, to be really explicit about this stuff. You know, if we’re not clear about it, if we’re not explicit about it, folks aren’t going to be a great fit. We work in the accounting industry, man. I mean, they’re stereotypically, like, what we’re talking about right now is not an element that’s at play.

John Garrett [00:15:53]:
No, not at all. Not at all.

Ben Curtis [00:15:54]:
But what we’ve seen is like, hey, there’s a lot of people out there that really enjoy and get excited about benefiting and interacting with other people. There’s a human element behind that. And I actually think, John, most people are wired that way to some degree or the other. Like, what gives?

John Garrett [00:16:10]:
If they allow themselves to be. Yes.

Ben Curtis [00:16:12]:
If they lean into it. That’s a great point. Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And that’s where I think, like, the nature aspect comes into play for me. It’s never been too difficult for me to lean into that. So I’ll acknowledge I might be wired. I’m a little more inclined to just do that naturally. But I do think it is something that’s fundamentally true of most of people.

Ben Curtis [00:16:27]:
I mean, I’d go that far to say this is what brings life, this is what brings joy, this is what brings meaning to work. And it is a bummer if you can’t bring that element into vocation where most folks spend the majority of our waking hours, you know, like. And that’s what you’re all about, you know, it’s like, let’s. Let’s bring these things together in a marriage of, like, being a holistic person here.

John Garrett [00:16:46]:
So, yeah, and I mean, bummer is a very polite word for that. I mean, it’s like, why would you work here? I mean, if you can’t even just breathe oxygen, like, you just can’t have color, you can’t have a personality, you can’t have any. I mean, now, I mean, obviously it’s. It’s all in the lens of getting your work done and, and, you know, not interrupting other people’s ability to do their work. But good Lord. I mean, and I love how you said that, that you know, what’s in your heart and so much, I think, over time has been what’s in your mind, like, what’s in your brain, you know, what do you know? You know, have you memorized all the FASB’s? Do you know, all the tax codes? Do you Know all the technical skill, but you’re like, you know, we could teach you that and. Or computers do half of it. So what’s in your heart? I love.

John Garrett [00:17:33]:
I love that you know, where it’s. You’re not specifically asking people that, but you’re asking questions in a way for you to be able to know that and know the person, because there’s a human there, you know, and we are tribal. We are. Want to be in relation and in communion with others. So it’s cool. Then, you know, I would encourage you to keep leaning into it more. I mean, you’re doing it right, you know, because I feel like sometimes we’re like, oh, well, we’re going to turn people off or we’re going to turn clients away. Good, because I don’t want to work with you anyway.

John Garrett [00:18:03]:
I don’t want you to work here anyway because it’s going to be terrible for both of us. So, you know, find people to lean in.

Ben Curtis [00:18:09]:
You know, it’s interesting. We. We’re pretty explicit about our core values with. Especially when we’re bringing team members on sometimes when we’re going through, like, a prospecting process with clients too. And one of those core values is to spread joy. And what we mean by that is it’s very. It’s pretty intentional. It’s intentionally not be joyful or joyfulness, because I think what that describes is something that’s more fuzzy and goes back and forth.

Ben Curtis [00:18:33]:
And, you know, I’m at the whim of my emotions, you know, like, well, I’m not. I don’t feel joyful today, so I can’t check off this core value. It’s like, no, no, no. It’s not about being joyful, but it’s this intentional decision. Like, we want to spread joy. We want to spread life to other people. No matter what the circumstances. You don’t have to be joyful and, like, happy.

Ben Curtis [00:18:51]:
Go lucky in this fake artificial way to spread joy. You know, like, John, you could be coming in this conversation with me today and had a really crappy day so far. And also you’re a delight to talk to. Like, it’s very clear you’re doing that right now. Like, you’re trying to spread joy in this. So you’re not being beholden to your circumstances while at the same time not being fake. That little concept. And I don’t think we have the corner on the market of core values by any means, but that little concept actually, I think articulates pretty well and, like, encapsulates pretty well this Attitude of like, hey, genuine connection with other people.

Ben Curtis [00:19:21]:
We want to spread joy. We want to like bring life to other people. And that’s part of how we do what we do. So let’s, let’s work hard to do that.

John Garrett [00:19:28]:
Yeah, no, I mean, I appreciate the kind words and yeah, I mean it is, it’s. I’ve accidentally created a show where you’re the most alive. I mean, you know, we’re talking about the thing that lights you up on a soul level, you know, I mean all the guests, you know, I’m not talking about your favorite Excel macro or your, you know, your favorite tax code, whatever, you know, like it’s, you know, what lights you up, you know, and so when the guests come on, it’s, it’s always a great fun, life giving conversation. Then I accidentally did that. So, you know, but, but then the people listening can hear it. It’s infectious, you know, I can see it in your face. Not everyone can, but you can hear it in your voice, you know, and, and it’s awesome. And I love, you know, the examples of, of what the firm is doing there, you know, at good measure.

John Garrett [00:20:11]:
And I guess how much does it matter, you know, for people listening that maybe are at larger organizations or aren’t in charge of, you know, their, their firm or their company? How much does it matter that, that, you know, it’s, it’s leadership setting the tone at the top or how much is it just, you know, hey, I’m just going to start amongst my peers and just share that way.

Ben Curtis [00:20:29]:
That’s a great question. I mean, we can go back to like the core value of spread joy that I just shared. Like, that is a. I do think tone at the top matters. I think as leaders go, so goes the rest of the organization. I do think there’s some truth in that. But there’s a both and element there where, you know, we share that core value with the team members and like they bring it to life. So spreading joy to people, it doesn’t happen because Ben, the president said we’re going to do this.

Ben Curtis [00:20:58]:
Like core values don’t define what a culture is. The people themselves define the culture. So I do think it helped. I think like leaders have to give direction. So I think, yeah, if you’re in a larger organization, it does matter what tone at the top is like. And I think like, sadly, we’ve probably all seen where that goes awry and it’s a crappy situation to be in, you know, But I also think people, individual people, we have more influence Than you, than we might think we do. And it might be in a small sphere of influence. I think it’s fair to acknowledge that.

Ben Curtis [00:21:27]:
But, like, in your small sphere of influence, I do think individual people can lean into the things I’m talking about. That’s what we ask our team to do, is like, hey, who cares what Ben says? The core values are. If the team doesn’t live them out, they’re not coming to life. It’s not happening. And when the team does live them out, it’s like, whoa, that’s way more powerful than anything I could just say by saying, like, we spread joy. Who cares? That doesn’t matter. So when I was at a. I mean, I was at a CPA firm, a regional CPA firm as an intern, I think, like, humbly, I can say I left that CPA firm pretty liked, pretty beloved.

Ben Curtis [00:21:59]:
And I think it’s because I tried to lean into just the human element of stuff here. And I was just. I was just a guy. I was just a normal guy on the bottom of the totem pole. But what I wanted to do was draw people out. So, anyway, I think there’s an element. We’re at your. When you’re at a larger organization, you can still make this come to life.

Ben Curtis [00:22:17]:
It’s just likely going to be in a smaller sphere of influence and we start there, you know?

John Garrett [00:22:21]:
Right. Yeah. I mean, even if it’s just your team, I mean, that’s a leader, you know, I mean, if you’re a senior associate and you have a, you know, a couple associates or you’re a manager and you have, you know, like, I mean, you know, it’s. The rest of the company could be total trash, but your area is going to be amazing. A small example. A couple of years ago, I spoke for a petroleum company and they had had massive turnover. Even the C suite, they had filed for bankruptcy. It was chaos.

John Garrett [00:22:44]:
But their IT department, which you would think would have crazy turnover because those people can get jobs in a heartbeat, they had zero turnover through all of this. And when I went and spoke to that group, I had each person say their name, and then I said, okay, the rest of the team, tell me what their and is just to see how it goes. And everyone, like, at least two thirds of the rest of the team knew what every single person’s and was. And I said, that’s exactly why you’ve had zero turnover, is because you all care about each other and you feel seen and valued as a human. Not just seen and valued as an IT professional. And that’s the kind of stuff that’s going to make organizations in good measure and people centric leaders, you know, stand out. And, you know, when people leave organizations, they’re going somewhere, so why not go there? You know, type of thing go to you.

Ben Curtis [00:23:39]:
Yeah, that’s right. And I think, like, we can. People can do that. We can do that when we have really clear vision also. So vision and direction of like, what are we after? What are we behind here? You know, I’ve shared a little bit of what good measure is after. Like, we’re after serving people and it’s like we’re utilizing tech and systems and processes for the sake of relationship with clients. And we still want to be super profitable. We want the clients to be super profitable.

Ben Curtis [00:24:01]:
But there’s vision behind this. You know, like, Simon Sinek has this analogy that’s really helpful, talking about a car and gas. Gasoline that you put in it. And he says the purpose of a car isn’t to put gas in it, but the purpose of the car is to take you somewhere that’s like a business and profit. So, like, the purpose of a business isn’t to be profitable, it’s to do something with it. And that’s just been like a. It’s a. That is a really helpful analogy for me as you think about vision and where people are going.

Ben Curtis [00:24:29]:
Like, why are we doing what we’re doing, this organization? Like, we don’t exist just to be profitable. We have deeper meaning behind that. A car doesn’t exist just to put gas in it. It takes you somewhere. It goes somewhere. And for us, part of where, you know, good measure takes us is deep, genuine connection with other people.

John Garrett [00:24:46]:
I love it, man. That’s so awesome. So great. So do you have any words of encouragement to someone listening that maybe they have an and, but they feel like no one’s going to care because it has nothing to do with my job or, you know, why should I share it type of thing.

Ben Curtis [00:25:01]:
Yeah, I think one, there’s. Yes, I would. I’d have a lot of. Have a lot of encouragement. I would want to start by asking lots of questions. But in the absence.

John Garrett [00:25:09]:
There you go. Part 2 of episode with Ben Curtis is about to start. Everybody, like, here we go.

Ben Curtis [00:25:14]:
Yeah. You want to spend 55 minutes asking questions and then 5 minutes giving feedback or given a response.

John Garrett [00:25:19]:
Totally. Yeah.

Ben Curtis [00:25:20]:
But in absence of that, I think, like, in short, there is a lot of opportunity that we have to lean into. Good. And maybe it’s a little more easy, it’s a little Easier for me to talk about human connection, because that’s something that’s, like, universally understood, even if it’s not as enjoyed so much. But you’ve had wonderful guests on in the past that have talked about really neat things that they’ve leaned into athletically or as a hobby or whatever. And it’s like, I still think ultimately people are excited to hear about the stories of other people. So when Casey Eames talks about volleyball or when Rafi Kostas talks about being, like, a jiu jitsu and soccer expert and master, there’s a human story behind that, and that’s compelling, and that’s what people are drawn to. So if I’m in an organization, I think, like, a words of wisdom would be, there’s the ability to share and to lean into the. And in your vocation, even if it is something that’s, quote unquote, a hobby.

Ben Curtis [00:26:16]:
Because what people are excited to hear about is the story of other people. Like, the story of human connection. I. I keep saying this. I do think every person. We are naturally wired to, like, enjoy the holistic experience with other humans. So, like, there’s worldview behind that. But I think I’m right.

John Garrett [00:26:33]:
It’s been around for a while, so I think it’s.

Ben Curtis [00:26:36]:
Yeah. So I don’t know if that makes sense. That’s still pretty pie in the sky, but, like, encouraging people. I think when we lean, when we’re, like, humble and share about ourselves, that opens us up to other people and we go farther in life when we’re connected to people rather than isolated, is a general statement. So there’s a lot of nuance behind that, but that’d be the general thought.

John Garrett [00:26:56]:
Yeah. No, I love it, man. That’s. That’s so great. And you’re right. I mean, you want to be around energy and people that are, you know, their eyes are wide open. You can hear it like I was saying earlier, and they’re. You see it in their face.

John Garrett [00:27:08]:
You hear it in their. In their voice. Like, you know, you want to be around that. And, you know, sometimes that happens when you’re talking about work, but not all the time. But every time you look and feel and sound like that when you’re talking about your aunt, because the. And is something that you can’t not do, you know, it’s a thing that’s always knocking, you know, and the work side, well, you know, I could not do it and still be fine, you know, if I were to financially be secure or whatever. Or I could just go and do A different job or that’s a lot easier of a shift where, you know, the end is like, yeah, you tell me. I can’t do this again.

John Garrett [00:27:47]:
Like, Ben, you could never ask another question to someone. Oh, like, like, oh, my Lord, that’s the worst thing ever.

Ben Curtis [00:27:56]:
You know, even just for the sake of. I need to hear my own voice sometimes. No, I’m just kidding.

John Garrett [00:28:02]:
You know, and so, you know, it’s. It’s cool to hear, like, that you’re seeing that and you’re feeling that and that you’re leaning into it more. So it’s. It’s super encouraging to hear. So I feel like it’s only fair before we wrap this up, though, that since I rudely peppered you with. With questions, that I turn the tables and make this the Ben Curtis podcast. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. I don’t know.

John Garrett [00:28:24]:
You could pick a new song if you want, but. But thanks for having me on. If you have any questions, I’m in the hot seat. I’m all yours.

Ben Curtis [00:28:30]:
Yeah. How have you leaned into actually pulling people out? I mean, the exact topic that we’re. Have you leaned into that more over 10, 15, 20 years? There’s that nature versus nurture question, like, right back at you. You do that. Well, just from a couple conversations with you, you know, has that been something that you have had to work very hard to craft and execute, would you say, man, I was just born like this and I’m leaning into it.

John Garrett [00:28:56]:
I think it’s more the latter, but I don’t know if I was necessarily born like this or if it. It became programmed as well because my dad was career Air Force, so we moved every two to three years. I think by the time I got to Notre Dame, that was like my eighth school or something like that. So I was always the new kid and so craving probably that connection, but also how to accelerate that connection, you know, when you’re the new kid is important. So it’s possible that it’s part of me. I think it is, but I also think that it was honed very quickly in my first 18 years of life. And so. But I do think that it’s just having a genuine interest in the people around us.

John Garrett [00:29:50]:
I mean, I do care what lights you up, and I couldn’t be doing 677 episodes over the last eight or nine years or whatever it’s been if I didn’t actually believe this and care about this, you know, So I think it is a one, two punch as far as, you know, nature versus Nurture. But it is infectious and I love it so much, you know, and I think it unlocks others. Like, I see that when I speak at conferences or speak at organization, you know, retreats or things. I could see it unlock in people that they’ve thought this or deep down inside they thought it, but they forgot that they thought it. And so it’s just tapping into a well that they thought had dried up that all of a sudden is this amazing source of life giving energy. And so that’s what’s really cool, is.

Ben Curtis [00:30:42]:
To see that that’s neat. I think you’ve probably seen this too. It’s also cool how this, I think this is universally true regardless of your wiring. AKA introverted or extroverted or somewhere in the middle, you know, like everything I would. Everything I’d say, I’m just describing. I’m probably leaning into that a little more heavily. You’re probably leaning into that a little more heavily because we’re a little bit more naturally extroverted. Man.

Ben Curtis [00:31:02]:
Most of the folks in my team are not like that. And I still think they embody a lot of what we’re talking about. So that’s what’s neat too is like, you’ve probably seen that, right, that folks can be temperamentally introverted. And there’s still an element where this is true. Maybe it’s with a fewer number of folks or something like that. But that core concept, I think is universally true for folks.

John Garrett [00:31:19]:
Yeah, well, and I mean, surprisingly, I’m pretty introverted. Yeah, sure, I’ll get in front of, you know, 500 people and speak. But I also look at that as one audience. That’s a one to one conversation. It’s not a one to 500. Even though there’s parts of me in my energy that go out to every single person that’s in the room. But you know, if I’m at an event, I would rather just find Ben and sit in the corner and talk to you for the whole time. Like, I don’t need to flood around and butterfly like all over and talk to everybody and all this fake surface level nonsense.

John Garrett [00:31:52]:
I’d rather just find two or three people that I know that. Let’s just hang out and talk. Someone else can be funnier than me. That’s great. I’m not on stage getting paid, so we’re cool. Like, you know, like somebody else can be whatever. Like I don’t care. I’m pretty introverted.

John Garrett [00:32:08]:
When I travel. I don’t turn on the TV in the hotel room. Sometimes I don’t even know if there is a tv, you know, So I mean, you know, it’s. Don’t use that as an excuse if you’re listening to not be human because you can do it on a one, on one basis. You know, it doesn’t have to be in front of the whole department type of a thing. And it’s just I feel like if leadership creates trust and creates that safe space and if you lead by example, you know, here’s my and what about you, you know, type of thing, then they realize it’s not a trap. Because a lot of people that are coming to work worked somewhere else before and for leaders that are not good. And so they’re coming in skittish, you know, it’s like a.

John Garrett [00:32:50]:
Like a dog from the shelter, you know, where they’ve been through some stuff. And so it’s going to take a little bit of time for them to believe you that this isn’t a trick, you know, type of a thing or a test. It’s, no, no, I genuinely care, like what’s up? And then so it just takes some time. So it’s patience along with genuine interest, you know, and people can sniff that out. All right, well, this has been great, Ben. Thank you so much for being a part of what’s yous Hand and being a living example of this. And look forward to seeing what, how Good Measure continues to grow and meeting up in person someday soon.

Ben Curtis [00:33:25]:
It’s a gift, man. Thanks for having me on. Great to talk.

John Garrett [00:33:31]:
Absolutely. And everybody listening. If you want to see some pictures of Ben outside of work or connect with him on social media, be sure to go to www.whatsyourand.com and while you’re on the page, please click that big button. Do the anonymous research survey about corporate culture and don’t forget to read the book. And thanks again for subscribing subscribing on Apple podcasts or whatever app you use and for sharing this with your friends so they get the message that we’re all trying to spread that who you are is so much more than what you do.